LMAO LMAO:  0
Dislikes Dislikes:  0
Ignorant Ignorant:  0
Moron Moron:  0
Page 311 of 679 FirstFirst ... 211261301309310311312313321361411 ... LastLast
Results 7,751 to 7,775 of 16957

Thread: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

  1. #7751
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    773
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregg View Post
    Hard money, easy money..piffle. It's "somebody else's money" that they're stealing that makes it wrong.
    Wrong? From whose perspective? Your's? Society's? This scene operates outside the social norms.

  2. #7752
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    773
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Mundorf View Post
    Oh,I would not say that.Any other people's money would be hard earned money ( from my point of view) for the simple reason it's not my money and jet I have it
    That's why you are not a HYIP admin :P Seriously, if you want to understand the scene, I mean really understand it, you have to suspend everything you know and consider normal, ethical, etc.

  3. #7753
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    615
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    38

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Quote Originally Posted by DevaEboracum View Post
    Has the BB Australia Facebook page gone? I can't find it anymore.
    Perhaps the authorities have finally started poking around from the complaints made about offering 'Financial Services'.
    Lucky someone has plenty of screenshots and background information on the page admin should they need it....
    Q & A with Terry Stern - Q&A with Terry Stern
    Banners Broker busted in India - Investment firm accused of duping investors
    Spread it on Facebook - Banners Broker Ponzi Scam

  4. #7754
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Is Eireannach mise
    Posts
    1,241
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Finix View Post
    Wrong? From whose perspective? Your's? Society's? This scene operates outside the social norms.
    One can look at it from the point of view of nature.
    somethings are always wrong. for example abusing a child. Yes there are those who say "if society decided (child abuse/rape/gassing concentration camp inmates) was okay then it would be acceptable"
    Natural Law would say clearly it would NOT be right it would always be wrong. that in the absence of laws about it what the Nazis did was wrong. In fact the Nazis made laws which in fact said what they were doing was right. They made these laws in their own democratically elected parliament.

    So the idea of "social norms" while appealing are not absolutes. Yes people should respect peoples traditions but if those traditions support child abuse rape slavery or genocide then they are wrong.

    So where does this lead us? Well it isn't from my perspective or yours or anyones relative subjective perspective. Nor indeed from any societies perspective. What they are doing is wrong, just as exterminating people was wrong when Nazis did it. That is called the "natural law" argument and gets around the "ther is no law against it so it cant be wrong" issue and the arguments of moral relativism and subjective norms.

    that said i dont think the instigators of Banners Broker put as much thought into their ethics as the Greek Philosophers or Early Christians or fathers of democracy put into their systems.

  5. #7755
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Is Eireannach mise
    Posts
    1,241
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Finix View Post
    That's why you are not a HYIP admin :P Seriously, if you want to understand the scene, I mean really understand it, you have to suspend everything you know and consider normal, ethical, etc.
    But one does not have to become evil in order to understand evil. I dont like using words like "evil" because it may well bog us down in "really understanding" what is meant by "evil" and the subjective argument of personal interpretations of "evil" but I think I have shown the counter argument against moral relativism. In order to assert a "real understanding" you would have to begin by saying that the thing you understand is the same thing that they do and can be objectively described and /or measured. So in a sense you yourself have already rejected moral relativism.
    But more to the point I would argue BB management are aware of the wrong but chose to ignore it because they dont care about the harm they do to others if it wins them money. The argument that they suspend ethics I reject. One for example could claim some Nazis who were totally sane believed in the cause and thought they were making the world better. These were few in number. Most knew they were persecuting others but didnt care because it meant they were living off the suffering of others e.g. inheriting the local Jew's big house when they "sent the family away".

  6. Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post
  7. #7756
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    6,668
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    There seems to have been a little confusion over this option, so to help alleviate that confusion we have re-worded the payout 'day limit' to read 'calendar days' as opposed to 'work days', which seemed to be the source of that confusion.
    Didn't they just say it was going to be 'business days' and not weekends days about a week ago?

  8. #7757
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    5,094
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    All Ponzi's are lies. Everything about them is a lie. There is nothing truthful about them. It is stealing, and it makes no difference from what perspective you want to look at it. These are not real businesses. Their whole purpose is to steal as much money they can while pretending to be a real business and the illusion they are telling the truth.

    There are players and promoters/pimps who have no conscious and could care less they are stealing as long as they get theirs; no matter what the cost to others.They lie just like the admins lie, and in some cases even more than the admin lies. Whatever it takes to make sure they get theirs they will do. The promoters and players are just as guilty as the admions who run these Ponzi's. They deserve to go to prison just like the admins do, and hopefully starting with Zeek that will begin to happen. For until it does, these will never go away. They need to know if you play you will pay.

    The moment the Ken Russo's, Faith Sloans, Strosdegoz, Rayda Roundy, Sara Mattoon, Barb Alford, Laura Pont, Aaron-Shara, Barb McIntrye, Arnie Strom, Chad Foss, Brad Weinman, Terralynn Hoy, Todd Disner, Dwight Schweitzer, Robert Fava, Pastor Troy Winters, Clarence Busby, Nanci Jo Frazer, Frabi, racer, Blondie, and the list goes on and on are made to pay for their involvement, the sooner these Ponzi's will disappear.
    EagleOne
    Founder/President Eagle Research Associates
    https://eagleresearchassociates.org
    Author: "Robbing You With A Keyboard Instead Of A Gun - Cyber Crime How They Do It" available in soft cover and eBook at Amazon.com
    Lifetime Member of the National Association of Distinguished Professionals

  9. Likes 13 Member(s) liked this post
  10. #7758
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,006
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleOne View Post
    All Ponzi's are lies. Everything about them is a lie. There is nothing truthful about them. It is stealing, and it makes no difference from what perspective you want to look at it. These are not real businesses. Their whole purpose is to steal as much money they can while pretending to be a real business and the illusion they are telling the truth.

    There are players and promoters/pimps who have no conscious and could care less they are stealing as long as they get theirs; no matter what the cost to others.They lie just like the admins lie, and in some cases even more than the admin lies. Whatever it takes to make sure they get theirs they will do. The promoters and players are just as guilty as the admions who run these Ponzi's. They deserve to go to prison just like the admins do, and hopefully starting with Zeek that will begin to happen. For until it does, these will never go away. They need to know if you play you will pay.

    The moment the Ken Russo's, Faith Sloans, Strosdegoz, Rayda Roundy, Sara Mattoon, Barb Alford, Laura Pont, Aaron-Shara, Barb McIntrye, Arnie Strom, Chad Foss, Brad Weinman, Terralynn Hoy, Todd Disner, Dwight Schweitzer, Robert Fava, Pastor Troy Winters, Clarence Busby, Nanci Jo Frazer, Frabi, racer, Blondie, and the list goes on and on are made to pay for their involvement, the sooner these Ponzi's will disappear.
    Excellent post and one that I agree with 1000%. I hope it happens soon, the sooner the better!

  11. #7759
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    19,835
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Whip View Post
    Didn't they just say it was going to be 'business days' and not weekends days about a week ago?
    Therein lies the problem.

    "They said"

    Anyone who believes ANYTHING said in the HYIP ponzi world is going to be disappointed.

    Regular HYIP ponzi players know, once you've sent your money, anything after that is pure luck.
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

  12. Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post
  13. #7760
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    531
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Della Cate View Post
    From the BB Netwrok Facebook page, posted an hour ago (apologies if you have seen this):-


    (The bold emphasis is mine)

    BBI is excited to announce an all new membership option coming soon called Executive. So for those of you looking to grow your business even further, there will now be three options: Standard, Premium and Executive. Aspects of this exciting new Executive option will be released soon, but it'll be worth the wait. (Don't you love being teased?)

    With the new membership option there will also be a new panel level launched, called Prestige! There will be no colour with this panel level but rather a pattern to spruce things up. (Matching wardrobe not included)

    Affiliates in India now have a reason to celebrate, because we now have a new provider for pay outs who will be able to wrap up the bank deposit slip issue ASAP. The bank option will be removed for India today, but will be made available again in a couple of weeks as we get the system ready for our provider there.

    Regarding the panel speeds, we recognize that over the holidays they did not run at the same speed they have throughout the rest of the year, however there's no reason to be alarmed. This is not something under our control, this just has to do with a drop in internet usage, as less people are online at this time of year, but also keep in mind, that panels don't move at real-time. Also BBI does not guarantee any set times for panels to complete, but as the holiday season is now behind us sufficiently, traffic has once again increased across the net, and it will gradually be reflected in the panels.

    Payouts have unfortunately fallen behind, but it's also nothing to worry about. We are rapidly catching up in all aspects, Payza, STP, as well as US Bank deposits.

    As of Feb 1, 2013, in order to successfully with draw funds to the BB card you will need to have proper ID uploaded to the system. We are now completely up to date on ID approvals.

    Here is some exciting news regarding the BB prepaid card. We have moved this system over to a more automated system to quicken the process for withdrawals. We are currently about a week behind, but again, now that the changes have been made we are catching up rapidly. Our IT team is constantly working to improve your experiences, and we're sure you'll appreciate their efforts. There will also be an announcement soon regarding a reverse option for the e-Wallet. There seems to have been a little confusion over this option, so to help alleviate that confusion we have re-worded the payout 'day limit' to read 'calendar days' as opposed to 'work days', which seemed to be the source of that confusion.

    That's all for now so stay tuned. We're constantly working to improve your experience with Banners Broker International, and we appreciate your being a part of our family.
    As an aside, or looking at this communication in a different light

    - new option, Executive, new panel level, change of payment method for India ( not been paid since Nov???) all require major IT team to coordinate
    - if 30% of affiliates looked to withdraw once a month, that would be 100,000 requests, currently being done manually, large volume support ticket team required
    - catching up on payouts, that is, payza, STP, US bank deposits, never mind the mastercard! another team of data entry required
    - ID's up to date, phew, the uploaders finished, what another massive undertaking in terms of resources.
    - BB credit cards, can only go from 'manual to automated' having been manually imputed first, another team of busy bees.

    the point I'm trying to make here, Stellarpoint claim to be the PR arm of BB, so they are not staffing the business, therefore, BB must have a business employing real people to do all they say they are doing. So, where are all these staff? Where are they working from? This is not a rhetorical question, I think I know the answer, but anyone doing due diligence, please stop and think this through!

    BTW, US BANK DEPOSITS?? US? Thought they couldn't operate there?

  14. #7761
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    14
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    All this Ponzi malarkey is new to me but quite fascinating. Judging by the incredible proliferation of YouTube videos – 23,000-plus, with dozens more being uploaded every day – there appears to be life in BB yet. Some have hundreds of thousands of views, a couple more than a million. That’s just the results from an English-language search “Banners Broker”. Quite a few Cyrillic alphabet results, but there must be thousands more in Arabic and various other languages and alphabets. Add to that all the blogs, Facebook pages and Twitter accounts and that’s an overwhelming amount of propaganda. It must be enough to maintain a steady stream of new income. After that it’s a question of maintaining the illusion by distributing “earnings” on a geographically optimum basis. I’m sure somebody, maybe a computer genius, could work out an algorithm for that.

    Some of the pitches are hilarious: “What I want to do is give you a brief overview of how Banners Broker actually works and it is very, very simple... What I want you to do is not dig around at the roots but to pick the flowers. Because if you were to try and work out just how Banners Broker manage to do this you’ll never do it in a million years. It is very simple and I want to keep it as simple as I possibly can.” Quite.

    Banners Broker Scam - Ignorance is Bliss?

    The most slick pitch is the Leadership Call hosted by David Hooker on January 21 which has been re-posted numerous times and, it appears, dubbed into other languages. It aims to anticipate objections, for example: “97 per cent of revenue from Google comes from advertising, about 37.3 billion dollars. Yet they don’t really have a product.” It all seems almost plausible, if you can stand Hooker’s unctuous delivery, up until about fifteen minutes in when the legerdemain happens. By then most people will have been bamboozled enough to make their excuses and leave. Just kidding! Quite the opposite unfortunately.

    2013-01-21 Leadership Call - Hosted by David Hooker

    However, you won’t find the most relevant YouTube video under a “Banners Broker” search. It’s actually the video that any prospective “affiliate” must watch!

    DePonzification 101 – Lesson #1

    If you can’t figure out how that might apply to you, then by all means sign up at once. Because you’re worth it. No, really.
    “You can't cheat an honest man. He has to have larceny in his heart in the first place,”
    W.C. Fields (1880–1946)

  15. #7762
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Tassi Australia
    Posts
    3,470
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleOne View Post

    The moment the Ken Russo's, Faith Sloans, Strosdegoz, Rayda Roundy, Sara Mattoon, Barb Alford, Laura Pont, Aaron-Shara, Barb McIntrye, Arnie Strom, Chad Foss, Brad Weinman, Terralynn Hoy, Todd Disner, Dwight Schweitzer, Robert Fava, Pastor Troy Winters, Clarence Busby, Nanci Jo Frazer, Frabi, racer, Blondie, and the list goes on and on are made to pay for their involvement, the sooner these Ponzi's will disappear.
    You'd think that Chad Foss and the others would have learned a lesson after the CEP clawbacks.....
    SEC v. Colon End Parenthesis Trust LLC
    ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ

  16. #7763
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Gettysburg PA, Cincinnati OH
    Posts
    559
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Quote Originally Posted by okosh View Post
    You'd think that Chad Foss and the others would have learned a lesson after the CEP clawbacks.....
    SEC v. Colon End Parenthesis Trust LLC
    That's the rub. Chad did learn, and learned well. You see, Foss was a net winner of just shy of $46,000 but only had to pay back $20,000 on an initial investment of less than $500. So while the investors who were net losers got back I think about 3-5% of what they put in, Shad got to keep all of his investment and $26,000 profit. He didn't get slapped down, he just had to give up less than half his profit. Had he been a net loser, he would have gotten back $15-$25, but instead he got $26,000.


    I like Bill Perkins, and at the time it was revolutionary for someone to go after the net winners for clawbacks, but letting them keep a single penny turned out to be a bad idea. All that it did was establish that if they fought the receiver, they end up keeping most of their stolen money.
    Last edited by Gregg; 02-01-2013 at 01:40 AM.

  17. Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post
  18. #7764
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Gettysburg PA, Cincinnati OH
    Posts
    559
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    I started a new post, but still on the same rant.

    As I said, CEP was the first time I recall that the winners faced clawbacks. But look at the various settlements made. Dustin Fennel (who was the admin of another ponzi that collapsed and he folded his downlines into CEP) "made" $104,000 and only had to pay back $30,000. Dustin put NO MONEY of his own into the scheme, he just delivered the sheep from his own failed ponzi and in the end kept $74,000!
    Marvin Bailey (who had accounts also for his wife and son) was in profit to $77,000 and paid back only $4,400 (no there is not a typo with a digit missing there) keeping 82% of his ill gotten profits.
    Greg Ducket and wife Mary made $98,000 and got to keep $97,000 of it. That's just an outrage.

    Go read the documents section of the CEP site, look for the 3 "proposed settlements" but I warn you, it might very well make you sick.

  19. Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post
  20. #7765
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    19,835
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    I couldn't agree with you more, Gregg.

    From the outside, it "seems" there has been a hardening of attitudes, both from the authorities and receivers in the past few prosecutions.

    One can only hope someone, somewhere has realized the enormity of the problems being created for world economies by the HYIP ponzi "industry" and decided enough is enough.

    IM(very)HO, the involvement of the Presidents' Task Force on organized crime and money laundering in the last few HYIP prosecutions is an encouraging sign the times are indeed a changin'
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

  21. Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post
  22. #7766
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Tassi Australia
    Posts
    3,470
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregg View Post
    That's the rub. Chad did learn, and learned well. You see, Foss was a net winner of just shy of $46,000 but only had to pay back $20,000 on an initial investment of less than $500. So while the investors who were net losers got back I think about 3-5% of what they put in, Shad got to keep all of his investment and $26,000 profit. He didn't get slapped down, he just had to give up less than half his profit. Had he been a net loser, he would have gotten back $15-$25, but instead he got $26,000.


    I like Bill Perkins, and at the time it was revolutionary for someone to go after the net winners for clawbacks, but letting them keep a single penny turned out to be a bad idea.
    All that it did was establish that if they fought the receiver, they end up keeping most of their stolen money.
    With the Zeek receiver now going after the net winners one can only hope that he doesn't let them off one cent.....Hope he makes them sell their assets to pay back the lot.....
    ʎɐqǝ uo pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐן ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ

  23. Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post
  24. #7767
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    1,332
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Still trying to find out what the max a member could take out in a month if he used more than one method? (if that is allowed)

    Also, do people remember when they decided that you had to give 3 months notice of a withdrawal of over 10k, was that per month or per payment?
    Last edited by noname999; 02-01-2013 at 03:02 AM.
    "if they are giving the Banners Broker Mastercard,Banners Broker must be a real company." -BB member.
    "A toyota means 1 thing. Extrenal revenue. That is proof."-BB member

  25. #7768
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Frankfurt a/m Germany
    Posts
    590
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Finix View Post
    That's why you are not a HYIP admin :P Seriously, if you want to understand the scene, I mean really understand it, you have to suspend everything you know and consider normal, ethical, etc.
    It's not a big deal.Believe me, it's quite easy.Anything you do or say to others just ask yourself - would you like the same done or said to you by others?If I would be faced with challenge to create a program like BB ,the first thing I would take in consideration is - would I like (would I feel good) to be recruited by who knows whom with my money invested by knowing all possible consequences?

  26. #7769
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Posts
    1,398
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Quote Originally Posted by noname999 View Post
    Still trying to find out what the max a member could take out in a month if he used more than one method? (if that is allowed)

    Also, do people remember when they decided that you had to give 3 months notice of a withdrawal of over 10k, was that per month or per payment?
    I assume that'll be each payment.
    The admins have a longer amount of time to get money together then ... or should I say the new recruits do.

    Jason

  27. #7770
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    1,332
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Poyol View Post
    I assume that'll be each payment.
    The admins have a longer amount of time to get money together then ... or should I say the new recruits do.

    Jason
    I wonder. It would seem to me that if the cap is every month rather than every payment it would slow things down more. No?
    "if they are giving the Banners Broker Mastercard,Banners Broker must be a real company." -BB member.
    "A toyota means 1 thing. Extrenal revenue. That is proof."-BB member

  28. #7771
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    On the other side of the screen
    Posts
    779
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Mate tells me that every time he signs in, the bit about synchronisation takes place regardless. There is an option to skip that... but you don't get to hit it as by that time it's finished synchronising.......


    Activation Fee

    January 30, 2013, 9:41 amPreviously, the $35 BannersBroker Prepaid Master Card Activation Fee had not been being charged. On January 29th, all affiliates that have an active card were charged this fee.
    So now they're putting through the activation fee? Wonder how many affiliates that little move will put into a "negative balance"

    There is a good British saying about organising a drinking session in a place that makes beer (this is the polite version) and it strikes me that BB are totally incapable to doing anything. I know you'll all say this is part and parcel of the ponzi scheme, but surely some of the affiliates must be waking up and smelling the coffee???

    *Sigh*

  29. #7772
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    19,835
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Quote Originally Posted by AshKen1
    I know you'll all say this is part and parcel of the ponzi scheme, but surely some of the affiliates must be waking up and smelling the coffee???
    I think you're missing the point.

    At this stage, Banners Broker WANTS to shake off members.

    The real money has been made, any money coming in now is cream to those behind Banners Broker.

    The more members who drop out of their "own" accord, the better it will be for Banners Broker when the inevitable collapse finally happens.
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

  30. #7773
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    On the other side of the screen
    Posts
    779
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Anyone want information on the Advertising Co-ordinator option?

  31. #7774
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    On the other side of the screen
    Posts
    779
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Quote Originally Posted by littleroundman View Post
    I think you're missing the point.

    At this stage, Banners Broker WANTS to shake off members.

    The real money has been made, any money coming in now is cream to those behind Banners Broker.

    The more members who drop out of their "own" accord, the better it will be for Banners Broker when the inevitable collapse finally happens.
    Yup you're right, I was missing the point: can you explain it a bit more please? Just for the benefit of anyone looking in.

  32. #7775
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    72
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

    Hit the nail on the head, Ashken1, what a bunch of thievin' bastards, I thought I'd be slugged the anticipated $35 fee about the time I received my BB card, on or around the time I received and activated the card, but SIX months down the track???? WTF???? That's it, shut them down. They're obviously a scam! How dare they give interest-free credit to their affiliates for 6 months on the $35 card fee???? I been a "premium member" since december but haven't been slugged the appropriate $100 per month premium member charge, just the once last month, but not retrospective for the previous five months. How dare they extend interest-free credit to their affiliates on fees and charges disclosed to them at the point of sale. I can only hope the authorities act swiftly on this unauthorized act of generosity.
    Last edited by waverider; 02-01-2013 at 07:02 AM. Reason: typo

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •