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Thread: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

  1. #26
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    Quote Originally Posted by nuk_1 View Post
    Bitcoin is not a ponzi. It has a finite supply that is being way out-stripped by demand this year and about 80% of existing mining is controlled by Chinese companies(think DeBeers and diamonds), not mining machines in some dude's basement because mining Bitcoin is pointless for hobbyists due to energy costs and hardware requirements. Now day-trading Bitcoin up/down can certainly be profitable, sometimes extremely so. You can also lose your ass just like any other day trading of anything though if you're not careful. You suddenly have every wanna-be guru selling courses, plans similar to forex trading, etc. and most have no clue what they are doing with cryptocurrency except they know it has been booming this year.

    There isn't a shortage of other altcoins that are indeed ponzis. Most Proof-of-Stake coins like Ripple are definitely so. The POS crypto's generally pay an annual return on the amount your staking of a few percent annually. Now, where is that return coming from if the crypto price goes down in value during the year? Hmmmm.

    Yes, these are investments but some like Bitcoin are not a ponzi setup at all. It comes down to the same thing with anything else....it's value is what someone else willingly will give you for it. No different than physical gold, diamonds, fiat money, etc.

    NUK
    Based on my own very microscopic amount of knowledge and understanding about cryptocurrencies, I'd concur with NUK's post, at least up to the comments on proof-of-stake part, at which point I'm lost, lol.

    I don't view bitcoin as being a ponzi. To me, it's pretty much just what the last paragraph in NUK's post said.

    I've never been a big stock market guy. Your investments go up and down based on highly manipulated profit/loss statements and "consumer confidence", WTF.

    Bitcoin and the legit altcoins seem to be a bit of the same thing with a new twist.

    That's just this ignorant fella's take.

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  3. #27
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    Quote Originally Posted by littleroundman View Post
    [/I]There are currently over a thousand "cryptocurrencies" listed on exchanges. How many of them are legitimate enough and will last long enough that Joe and Joanne Citizen will use, and more importantly, trust cryptocurrency ???

    IM(very)HO, cryptocurrency is an excellent concept.

    Execution in the real world is a totally different thing, ESPECIALLY when the criminal classes recognized its' potential before the man in the street.
    [/B]
    What LRM said.

    Sincerely,

    Joe Citizen



    There's so much hype about these things being the currency of the future, but I don't see it being the very near future, if ever.

    Again, from my extremely uneducated position, it seems more likely that somehow, someway, the current or similar monetary system will implement the technology behind these currencies.

    That would leave these cryptocurrencies as something like digital beaver pelts being traded in the backwoods of the internet.

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  5. #28
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    Quote Originally Posted by surfer View Post
    digital beaver pelts
    if I start a cryptocurrency, that's what I'm naming it.
    Haven't lost any money to online scams.......results are typical.

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  7. #29
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    Quote Originally Posted by surfer View Post

    That would leave these cryptocurrencies as something like digital beaver pelts being traded in the backwoods of the internet.
    Digital Beaver Pelts, DBP. I think you need to launch an ICO you'll make a mint. Despite all the hype, I think you probably nailed it. If the price stabilizes BTC could become more of a currency, but would lose many of the speculators. Right now folks are doing what they always do, buying because it "always" goes up. Once that appreciation stops people will either leave by choice or force if they levered too heavily.

    As a "currency" it doesn't make a lot of sense since its smarter to fix a transaction price in dollar terms rather than bitcoin #. As long as that's the case, why use BTC at all? If I agreed to sell a car for 1 BTC on Thursday at $7500 and at Sunday's low realized 1 BTC was now $5500 I might not want to sell my car. The reverse is true for a buyer that may no longer want to trade appreciated BTC.

    The addition of futures gives BTC more of an air of credibility with the money crowd, but might push out the "cowgirls" that love the wild west keep the man out of my life aspect of BTC. The futures allow people to hedge transactions, arbitrage markets, and bet against BTC.
    If nothing else futures should get us much closer to a true market value for BTC.


    https://www.ft.com/content/1c9f468a-...6-b25f8adaa111
    CME Group Announces Launch of Bitcoin Futures
    "It's virtually impossible to violate rules ... but it's impossible for a violation to go undetected, certainly not for a considerable period of time." Bernie Madoff
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Scam-...98399986981403

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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    Bitcoin has performed amazingly well, so it’s tempting to buy. Don’t bother, says Rogers. “It looks and smells like all the bubbles I have seen throughout history.” True, bubbly assets can continue to march higher than any rational person imagines possible. So there could be further gains. But messing around with bubbles is risky. Better to just stay away. “I have missed it, whatever it is,” Rogers says.

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ji...les-2017-11-21

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  11. #31
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel Laureate and Columbia University Professor, discusses Bitcoin and explains why the digital currency "ought to be outlawed."

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/video...outlawed-video

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  13. #32
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    The contents of a digital wallet belonging to cryptocurrency company NiceHash, which included potentially millions of dollars worth of customers' bitcoin, was stolen in a major security breach early Wednesday.

    Entire contents of NiceHash's digital wallet stolen in security breach - Business Insider

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  15. #33
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    "Bitcoin is a pure gamble, and those interested in the cryptocurrency should just go to Vegas"...

    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/06/cram...-in-vegas.html

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  17. #34
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    Given its rapidly growing climate footprint, bitcoin is a malignant development, and it's getting worse. A bitcoin transaction requires the same amount of electricty that it takes to power 9 homes in the United States for 24 hours.

    Bitcoin is ruining the planet - Business Insider

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  19. #35
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bestbud View Post
    "Bitcoin is a pure gamble, and those interested in the cryptocurrency should just go to Vegas"...

    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/06/cram...-in-vegas.html
    No matter whether it is sportsbetting or table games, the house in Vegas always has an advantage. In other words, for most gamblers, it's a losing proposition, especially in the short term. Bitcoin is a gamble for sure, but one that is winning tremendously in comparison to other gambling activities all year and, oh yeah, just crossed 16K up another 25% or so in 24hrs as I was typing this. Get that kind of return at Vegas. Cramer's idea that Vegas is "fabulous" must make up for the reality of not being the best gamble around.

    Wait until the futures market starts cranking up next week and people wanting to short the hell out of Bitcoin. That will be interesting.

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  21. #36
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    Bitcoin has given investors whiplash yet again...

    Bitcoin plunges more than $3,000 after hitting new record - Dec. 8, 2017

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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    Hi guys I have been in the crypto world since 2012 so I am well versed in the topic.
    So, is Bitcoin a Ponzi?
    Nope. It is decentralized meaning it has no sole owner or man behind the curtain. It is an infrastructure that meant to cut out the middle man a.k.a. The Bankers (They're wankers!). It is essentially a massive bot if you will, that can replace the friendly bank teller and the whole brick and mortar aspect of banking with just one piece of software. It is a deflationary currency which is the opposite of the USD or any other fiat. With a hard cap of 21M BTC, the buying power of one has to rise over time. But fret not, because it is divisible pretty much ad infinitum so every person can own some BTC if they choose to.
    The bad press is there to manipulate people and scare them away from this world but NOT with your safety in mind. Articles about BTC being dead are everyday things that technically literate people read to have a good laugh :)
    The old school economists can't wrap their heads around it because they are indoctrinated with the "inflation is good" nonsense. Yeah I love making essentially less money than I made with the same work last year and provide the elite even bigger tax cuts by paying their share into the system...Who does not like inflation?

    Fact is, if you're simple dude in a basement Bitcoin and crypto in general is your best bet to make money online. I started mining with a used Radeon 5870 in 2012 that burned out but I did ROI on that beast of a card!
    Also the PTC world is much more generous if they use BTC.
    BUT, since the transactions are irreversible in nature the scammers love it. So, if someone is promising 1% daily gains in BTC they are more bogus than those who promise 1% daily in fiat.

    There is so much more to write here so I will address other questions later.

  23. #38
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    Hiya, cloudchecker and welcome to REALSCAM.com

    IM(very)HO, more relevant questions to ask would be:

    * Is the current Bitcoin bubble sustainable ??

    * Are governments going to continue to allow Bitcoin to be used as the preferred currency of fraudsters, criminals, terrorists, tax avoiders and the dark web ???
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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  25. #39
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    Quote Originally Posted by cloudchecker View Post
    It is an infrastructure that meant to cut out the middle man a.k.a. The Bankers (They're wankers!).
    Ridiculous, I set up a Bitpay wallet and wanted to purchase some BTC. The two options I was given to make a purchase indicated the transactions would take days to complete. BTC is terribly inefficient and expensive, you are living in fantasy land to claim otherwise.

    Better off letting the merchant pay the middleman.

    Quote Originally Posted by cloudchecker View Post

    It is a deflationary currency which is the opposite of the USD or any other fiat.
    BTC is the very definition of FIAT, more so than things like the USD since the government has the ability to tax and owns assets. The gold coin hucksters love to toss around "fiat" as well, such an ominous sounding word.

    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fiatmoney.asp


    Quote Originally Posted by cloudchecker View Post

    Fact is, if you're simple dude in a basement Bitcoin and crypto in general is your best bet to make money online.
    Yeah, just like dot.com stocks, statements like this are a sure sign of a bubble.



    Quote Originally Posted by cloudchecker View Post
    BUT, since the transactions are irreversible in nature the scammers love it. So, if someone is promising 1% daily gains in BTC they are more bogus than those who promise 1% daily in fiat.
    Nope, they're both bogus just one is playing off the hysteria which is what any self respecting scammer should do.
    "It's virtually impossible to violate rules ... but it's impossible for a violation to go undetected, certainly not for a considerable period of time." Bernie Madoff
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Scam-...98399986981403

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  27. #40
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    Quote Originally Posted by cloudchecker View Post
    It is decentralized meaning it has no sole owner or man behind the curtain. It is an infrastructure that meant to cut out the middle man a.k.a. The Bankers (They're wankers!). It is essentially a massive bot if you will, that can replace the friendly bank teller and the whole brick and mortar aspect of banking with just one piece of software.
    Fees are charged by cryptocurrency wallets and exchanges. It's just a virtual middleman instead of a physical one.

    Quote Originally Posted by cloudchecker View Post
    It is a deflationary currency which is the opposite of the USD or any other fiat. With a hard cap of 21M BTC, the buying power of one has to rise over time. But fret not, because it is divisible pretty much ad infinitum so every person can own some BTC if they choose to.
    This is one thing that has stumped me. With the divisibility and/or the potential for a hard fork increasing the supply, it really doesn't seem like much of a "hard cap".

    Quote Originally Posted by cloudchecker View Post
    The bad press is there to manipulate people and scare them away from this world but NOT with your safety in mind. Articles about BTC being dead are everyday things that technically literate people read to have a good laugh :)
    Manipulation runs both ways. Or do you think that everyone singing bitcoin's praises is altruistic?

    Quote Originally Posted by cloudchecker View Post
    The old school economists can't wrap their heads around it because they are indoctrinated with the "inflation is good" nonsense. Yeah I love making essentially less money than I made with the same work last year and provide the elite even bigger tax cuts by paying their share into the system...Who does not like inflation?
    From what I've seen, some can and some can't. Some warnings seem to be from those stuck in the past with a closed mind and some seem to be showing concerns that make sense.

    As I mentioned earlier, it seems a bit too volatile at this point to be taken seriously as a currency.

    And since any scammer on the planet can launch their own, do you think that regulators won't eventually clamp down in some way?

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  29. #41
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    “Bitcoin is volatile enough as a stand-alone investment. I don’t think the retail investor needs to be adding to leverage through a futures contract on top of bitcoin,” Osborne said. “So buyer be very much beware when it comes to retail investors and futures contracts.”

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/bi...now-2017-12-09


    Wall Street banks are warning about the dangers of bitcoin futures.


    Bitcoin: Big banks say futures could be dangerous - Dec. 7, 2017

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  31. #42
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    "Bitcoin plunged by 30 percent to below $12,000 on Friday as investors dumped the cryptocurrency after its sharp rise to a peak close to $20,000 prompted warnings by experts of a bubble."

    https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-g...-idUSKBN1EG0A8

  32. #43
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bestbud View Post
    “Bitcoin is volatile enough as a stand-alone investment. I don’t think the retail investor needs to be adding to leverage through a futures contract on top of bitcoin,” Osborne said. “So buyer be very much beware when it comes to retail investors and futures contracts.”

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/bi...now-2017-12-09



    When BTC and the other cryptos blow up and/or enter a significant bear market over-leveraged investors will get carried out as always. While I don't have any hard data my spidey senses tell me too many folks have geared up using credit cards and similar to invest.


    If I was going to buy BTC I would use the futures contracts as opposed to the currency. The contracts settle in cash and there is zero counterparty risk so the money will be there. Also no concern of having a wallet or exchange (allegedly) hacked and having your futures contract ending up at a bazaar in Russia. With that said, I would only buy the contracts outright employing no margin. I think exchange requirements are around 40-50% so a $15K contract could be purchased for $7.5K, recipe for disaster IMHO.

    On the sell side, the futures contracts allow someone to bet on the price of BTC falling. Since theoretically there is no limit to how high BTC price could go, this gambit could easily wipe out an undercapitalized investor.
    "It's virtually impossible to violate rules ... but it's impossible for a violation to go undetected, certainly not for a considerable period of time." Bernie Madoff
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Scam-...98399986981403

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  34. #44
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    "Buys and sells on Coinbase, the largest cryptocurrency exchange in the US, were disabled for a little over two hours Friday amid a massive cryptocurrency sell-off."

    Coinbase halts buying and selling as crypto market plunges - Business Insider

  35. #45
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bestbud View Post
    "Buys and sells on Coinbase, the largest cryptocurrency exchange in the US, were disabled for a little over two hours Friday amid a massive cryptocurrency sell-off."

    Coinbase halts buying and selling as crypto market plunges - Business Insider
    Maybe it's the time of year, but I can't help but think about the bank run scene from "It's a Wonderful Life".

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  37. #46
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...


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  39. #47
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    Quote Originally Posted by ribshaw View Post
    When BTC and the other cryptos blow up and/or enter a significant bear market over-leveraged investors will get carried out as always. While I don't have any hard data my spidey senses tell me too many folks have geared up using credit cards and similar to invest.
    Some fools are even making Bitcoin part of their IRA's and telling others what a grand idea it is.
    If I was going to buy BTC I would use the futures contracts as opposed to the currency. The contracts settle in cash and there is zero counterparty risk so the money will be there. Also no concern of having a wallet or exchange (allegedly) hacked and having your futures contract ending up at a bazaar in Russia. With that said, I would only buy the contracts outright employing no margin. I think exchange requirements are around 40-50% so a $15K contract could be purchased for $7.5K, recipe for disaster IMHO.
    YES!
    On the sell side, the futures contracts allow someone to bet on the price of BTC falling. Since theoretically there is no limit to how high BTC price could go, this gambit could easily wipe out an undercapitalized investor.
    YES x1000.

    NUK

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  41. #48
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bestbud View Post
    The analyst from Morgan Stanley also should have mentioned that as a private investor who majorly screws-up by ignoring basic facts and even minimal common sense, you won't have available to you 100bil+ from the US Fed Reserve to keep you afloat. Nope, no bailout for your blunders and you're just broke instead because you're not too big to fail.

    NUK

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  43. #49
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    Bitcoin Tumbles Over Exchange-Closure Fears...

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-are-possible

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  45. #50
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    Re: Is Bitcoin an imploding ponzi??...

    There are a lot more options than two to buy bitcoins. Here are the exchanges where you can buy, some allow instant credit/debit card payments too.

    https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets

    You can buy from people too. On the street, with just scanning a QR code on the phone.

    Fiat is debt based currency. That's why inflation -and hyperinflation- exists because the printed money is borrowed from the issuing bank at interest, using the existing money supply as collateral.
    Bitcoin is just software and it has a hard cap on the supply. Also the dot com is still making money to those who were in early and for those who host websites with dot com domains.
    The fees are there for the miners - the owners of the rigs that secure the blockchain. They verify the transactions that go to the network and put them in blocks.
    Actually banks are starting their own blockchains while advising everyone else to avoid them.
    About the volatility: it is decreasing as adoption rises. Right now you can find students in pretty much every classroom who own crypto.
    With the rise of ETH the market has been given a new tool to secure and verify contracts. Smart contracts only execute transactions when all conditions are met. Bitcoin can also be used for this purpose with the use of colored coins.
    About the taxability: the wallets themselves can only be accessed by their owners but since the blockchain is a public ledger everyone can see what's in it. The tax man can come after you so it's not really good for tax evasion. The difference is the issuer: Only the US is authorised to print or issue new US Dollars but since bitcoin is a global network anyone can participate in generating bitcoins if they have enough computing power.

    As you can see it's a lot more than just money, it creates new technologies and removes politics from transactions. If I was in North Korea (which I don't intend to visit, EVER) and I somehow had access to the internet I could still transact to anyone in Venezuela. Highly unlikely but doable.

    I actually mined bitcoins back in 2012 and I still have some. This is cloud computing which is essentially what my nick refers to.

    To end my entry here's a reputable math geek's explanation on how it works

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBC-nXj3Ng4

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