Textex's Amway Is The Trunk Of The MLM Tree, Let's Chop It Down Thread Gone Wild!

[NikSam]

Multi-Level Marketing Network Exposed



Till you get rid of politicians backing up MLM scams, not much can be done, only exposing and multiplying public outrage are the options.

[Textex]

Multi-Level Marketing Network Exposed



Till you get rid of politicians backing up MLM scams, not much can be done, only exposing and multiplying public outrage are the options.

The FTC is going after Herbalife right now, so the iron is HOT! We can bypass the politicians if we make big enough of a stink. These 3 are part of the problem, not the solution. I'm not saying they are 100% wrong about everything they are saying, just that they are "career" critics who are TALKING they would like to stop MLM scams, but they ACT as in a way to continue their critic careers, such as being paid to testify at trials, writing and selling books, representing people against MLMs in trials, etc.

FitzPatrick believes in the "unending recruiting pyramid" theory, which is in line with the saturation pyramids you see elsewhere on this thread, and this judge not only rejected the FTC's "unending recruiting pyramid" but laughed at it, mocked it, and made fun of it: MLM Legal (see section IV). The problem with this theory is it doesn't pan out in the real world. Amway alone (not to mention the hundreds of other MLMs out there, plus the thousands that have come and gone) would saturate the entire planet in about 32 years, and Amway has been around for 55 years, if each person sponsored only one person/year (ignoring births, deaths, and people quitting, admittedly major assumptions). The REAL problem is what I said originally, people are brought in, go broke, then are churned out, and a new "mark" is identified and the cycle begins again. FitzPatrick and Brooks (and one or 2 others) started a web site, mlmpetition.com, but then froze it. You can find my comments under "Scott Johnson." I've tried talking/emailing sense into them, to no avail.

[Char]

^^^^WOW. First time I've seen that one. SUMS EVERYTHING UP QUITE NICELY.

Yes, exposing and multiplying the outage. I'd also add SHAMING those involved.

[Textex]

^^^^WOW. First time I've seen that one. SUMS EVERYTHING UP QUITE NICELY.

Yes, exposing and multiplying the outage. I'd also add SHAMING those involved.

You just made my point. That video has been out for 4 years, you are someone who closely monitors scams, and you haven't seen it. Therefore, it obviously didn't go viral. A half hour video won't be watched, let alone the subject matter being of interest to the typical person. That's why we need to change our tactics to stir things up. We need a simple message, the complaints have to be clearly illegal, and we have to make a lot of noise. Again, who's in?

[Char]

You just made my point. That video has been out for 4 years, you are someone who closely monitors scams, and you haven't seen it. Therefore, it obviously didn't go viral. A half hour video won't be watched, let alone the subject matter being of interest to the typical person. That's why we need to change our tactics to stir things up. We need a simple message, the complaints have to be clearly illegal, and we have to make a lot of noise. Again, who's in?

I think all ways to spread the word would be good. My contribution is posting here and in conversation when it comes up.

The MLM double talk is miles ahead of us and it's hard to get people to see why it doesn't work. If you just say its an illegal pyramid scheme, they say no it's not - That's too simple IMO. This is why I like the link I posted as it gets right to the heart of the matter which IS long.

It's funny, this is the second time I've posted my 6-4-2 explanation on a scam site and it got very little response from both sides. I really thought I was on to something as I didn't even think of it that way for a long time. When I realized that there can NEVER be a "2", I really got it. This is why it's not as simple as they make it sound. I'm aware it's hard to grasp at first and I need to refine my explanation.

I feel that even if there is a clear law, the scammers will figure a way around it. For example, tell the Amway computer you've done 50 pv to retail customers each month by making up names.

I agree, somehow the word needs to get out better but we need to be armed with the reasons why. When people hear and think they can make easy money, they will turn a blind eye if it's "not too illegal" if you know what I mean. Now, explain to them why they can't make money the way it's explained and I think we will get somewhere.

Again, room for anything and everything to get the message out is ALL good.

[Textex]

I think all ways to spread the word would be good. My contribution is posting here and in conversation when it comes up.

The MLM double talk is miles ahead of us and it's hard to get people to see why it doesn't work. If you just say its an illegal pyramid scheme, they say no it's not - That's too simple IMO. This is why I like the link I posted as it gets right to the heart of the matter which IS long.

It's funny, this is the second time I've posted my 6-4-2 explanation on a scam site and it got very little response from both sides. I really thought I was on to something as I didn't even think of it that way for a long time. When I realized that there can NEVER be a "2", I really got it. This is why it's not as simple as they make it sound. I'm aware it's hard to grasp at first and I need to refine my explanation.

I feel that even if there is a clear law, the scammers will figure a way around it. For example, tell the Amway computer you've done 50 pv to retail customers each month by making up names.

I agree, somehow the word needs to get out better but we need to be armed with the reasons why. When people hear and think they can make easy money, they will turn a blind eye if it's "not too illegal" if you know what I mean. Now, explain to them why they can't make money the way it's explained and I think we will get somewhere.

Again, room for anything and everything to get the message out is ALL good.

At any moment in time, there certainly can be a "2." If you think they can get around any rule, let's just give up....

I agree all ways is good, but if posting on a blog isn't effective, we have to do more. I also agree we can't just say it's a scam, and I don't do that. The 2 main problems are lack of retail sales to non-participants makes it an illegal pyramid (the FTC and SEC web sites agree with this, as do a number of court judgments), and the tool scams, which are clearly in violation of the FTC Section 5 rules which prohibit unfair and deceptive practices, and this is also RICO fraud. That's it, period. The scammers simply can't answer those questions effectively without lying. I have a conference number, and you can keep your number confidential. Or we can discuss on Skype, let me know which you prefer. Thanks.

[Char]

At any moment in time, there certainly can be a "2." If you think they can get around any rule, let's just give up....

I agree all ways is good, but if posting on a blog isn't effective, we have to do more. I also agree we can't just say it's a scam, and I don't do that. The 2 main problems are lack of retail sales to non-participants makes it an illegal pyramid (the FTC and SEC web sites agree with this, as do a number of court judgments), and the tool scams, which are clearly in violation of the FTC Section 5 rules which prohibit unfair and deceptive practices, and this is also RICO fraud. That's it, period. The scammers simply can't answer those questions effectively without lying. I have a conference number, and you can keep your number confidential. Or we can discuss on Skype, let me know which you prefer. Thanks.

Could you explain this statement to me?
"At any moment in time, there certainly can be a "2.""

Blogging is effective for some people - Myself for example. I was asked to join ASD and another scam site saved me. I've also learned so much about MLM.

Other than educating people, how do you specifically suggest "doing more"? What are your ideas?

Btw, I'm not prepared to spend any of my personal money - Amway already took enough of mine

Also, I know there is a lot of debate over what qualifies an an "end user". I'm not convinced by the mlmers interpretation, but this is just another example of skirting around the law the scammers use.

[ribshaw]

It's funny, this is the second time I've posted my 6-4-2 explanation on a scam site and it got very little response from both sides. I really thought I was on to something as I didn't even think of it that way for a long time. When I realized that there can NEVER be a "2", I really got it. This is why it's not as simple as they make it sound. I'm aware it's hard to grasp at first and I need to refine my explanation.

From where I sit the explanation makes perfect sense, along with "who actually sells the stuff", which is always the other guy. I may muck it up a little, I see virtually everyone in Amway(OR ANY MLM) is a deceived or soon to be disillusioned "2" who dreams of being a "6", yet seldom makes it to "4". A "2" is doing nothing but feeding the "6" and teasing the "4", and the most likely outcome is becoming a "0".

The companies will claim the "2" is just a retail customer when it is convenient for them, and those that are still "plugged in" will claim the "2" isn't working the plan, or some similar cliche.

I agree, somehow the word needs to get out better but we need to be armed with the reasons why. When people hear and think they can make easy money, they will turn a blind eye if it's "not too illegal" if you know what I mean.

This is the meat of the problem, and the person who figures it out will be a blogging "6". A few things come to mind, one being that at some point you are not dealing with a rational actor. Numbers don't matter, facts don't matter, what "former" friends and family say don't matter. How did Jim Jones do what he did? Try that at your next neighborhood get together and people will almost wish you were pushing Amway.

There is a LOT of good discussion on the link below, this is the first comment. What they are saying I have heard 1000 times if I heard it once. While enjoyable, it can be very difficult to rationally discuss the merits of the phrases that are being parroted as the gospel with people who are at this stage. Maybe life and experience will cause them to revisit it, certainly there are things I thought differently about at 20 than I do now.
================================================== ==============
https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/AUS/index.htm

The articles that you have just printed are total scum. This thing about Amway being a cult is ludicrous. Look at Ray Kroc, he took a system developed by the McDonald brothers, and eventua lly made $Billions. That was done by DUPLICATION. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it. To all of the "quitters, I hope you come around again, you didn't want to win. If you did, you would have shown some sticking power." Col. Sanders of Kentucky Fried Chick- en took 1009 no's before he sold his first franchise. Look at Rudy Ruddiger, he went through two years of junior college to make it into Notre Dame. He then played four years of practice team football to play in one game. He only played in one play, but he seized the moment and made a sack!!!!! God honored him because he stuck it out!! Anyone can build this business if they follow the system. I guess you consider "McDonalds a CULT TOO!!" This page really pisses me off. A bunch of observant losers contributed to this worthless page. I have been called to preach, and the Lord is the head of my life. (Not my upline.) If you want some of the nicer things in life, evaluate your current situation. Can you succeed working for another man, coming in when he want's you to? I want to live the live of a caveman. "I wake up when I'm ready, I eat when I'm hungry, I do what I choose all day, and I go to bed when I'm tired. Can you do that with a 40hr/wk JOB?

!!!!!NO!!!!!

Can you do this with Amway if you are consistent for a 2-5 year period? *** YES, YOU CAN DO IT!!! ******

The guy that created this page has job mentality, he probably won't make it in this world.

Thanks for listening

'Slam Dunking Diamond'

P.S. I will be financially independent on 8-23-97, where will you be if your mouth is doing all the talking, vs. your feet taking action.

================================================== ==============

Now, explain to them why they can't make money the way it's explained and I think we will get somewhere.

I am cynical, but it will always be a constant battle, if not Amway(OR INSERT MLM HERE) would have collapsed under its own weight long ago. The same would be true for virtually every Ponzi scheme in existence, yet year after year...

One thing that occurred to me the other day is that of the value proposition of buying from yourself is just not there. If 95-99% of people quit any given MLM in 5 years they must not see any true value in the product beyond using it as a tool to make money from others. Even if they hated recruiting, hated Rich Dad blather, hated sleeping in their car to get front row at Family Reunion Free Enterprise Day, they would continue to use the stuff themselves. Unless of course, they realized somewhere along the way that they were purchasing overpriced or inferior products.

Like Col. Sanders, 1000s will challenge our methods and we will have to keep plugging away just the same. I suspect a lot of people show up here and keep their wallet in their pocket based on solid information that is provided. That is a W in my book.

[Textex]

ribshaw, perhaps you would be interested with working together to shut down Amway. Are you interested?

[Char]

Remember, we're on the same side!!!

Please explain why there "can" be a "2" here. I really want everyone to see this discussion.

And with respect, I don't know you and I'm not comfortable communicating privately with you.

[Textex]

Remember, we're on the same side!!!

Please explain why there "can" be a "2" here. I really want everyone to see this discussion.

And with respect, I don't know you and I'm not comfortable communicating privately with you.

No thanks, it is too time consuming. Also, I offered methods you can keep your identity confidential. Remember, I don't know you, either. But if you want to know more about me, read my blog. Later.

[Char]

That's all you needed to say re keeping some things confidential, geez. May I suggest using the PM option here?

As my saying goes, "It's what they don't say that is very telling"

Works especially well in relationships - Listening to what they're not saying.

[Textex]

That's all you needed to say re keeping some things confidential, geez. May I suggest using the PM option here?

As my saying goes, "It's what they don't say that is very telling"

Works especially well in relationships - Listening to what they're not saying.

You can suggest anything you want. It takes as many keystrokes in PM as it does here. Later.

[Char]

This is a blogging site, is it not? Eiyiyi

I wish textex luck in helping the cause his way. I'm doing my best and operating via what my comfort level is re trying to protect myself from strangers - I think that's reasonable as there are a lot of nuts out there.

I also speak from personal experience that scam dot com, a blogging site, helped me. Unfortunately, they are not what they use to be as most people have moved here and realscam.com is now the preferred site IMO. Back in the day however, the other site saved me 5k and I owe SBM, GOG and others.

Have a nice day.

[Textex]

Of course this is a blogging site, but that doesn't mean we have to only stay here and blog, right? Eiyiyi

If you're doing your best, that's all anyone can ask from you.

However, it's not only about you. There are millions of others who will be scammed, unless we do more than merely blog. If you don't want to help them, fine. I've been blogging about Amway and other MLM scams since 2005, and this is the first time I found this blog, so if you think you're going to reach very many people, I would disagree.

Have a nice day.

[Char]

What makes you think I only stay here and blog? Remember you said some things should remain confidential.

All about me you say? I volunteer a lot of my time here because I know it's helpful to some like it was to me. Sorry you don't approve.

You come to a blogging site and use it to recruit for your cause, admit that you've been blogging since 2005 about Amway unsuccessfully with your site, frustrated, you bash and offend this site for not reaching enough people however it often comes up on page one of google now and is gaining momentum, you ask the bloggers here to help but only on your terms, and then alienate the people who also hate Amway.

To quote Ribshaw, "Me no likey". I still wish you luck in taking down Amway your way.

[Textex]

What makes you think I only stay here and blog? Remember you said some things should remain confidential.

All about me you say? I volunteer a lot of my time here because I know it's helpful to some like it was to me. Sorry you don't approve.

You come to a blogging site and use it to recruit for your cause, admit that you've been blogging since 2005 about Amway unsuccessfully with your site, frustrated, you bash and offend this site for not reaching enough people however it often comes up on page one of google now and is gaining momentum, you ask the bloggers here to help but only on your terms, and then alienate the people who also hate Amway.

To quote Ribshaw, "Me no likey". I still wish you luck in taking down Amway your way.

I said all you do is blog because you're unwilling to make a simple phone call, while keeping your number confidential. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude you aren't doing much else. And the "confidential" line doesn't fit logic. Even YOU said we are on the same side, but you can't even make a phone call. LOL

Yes, all about you. As I said, there will be very few people stumble across this blog, and even fewer who will find what they are looking for, as that's the nature of blogs. It's people like YOU that are a large part of the reason I haven't made much [visible] headway since 2005. You sit behind a keyboard and type, and it's not enough. But that's okay, we can't all be competent.

I don't consider a simple phone call as "only my terms," and if you aren't willing to make a simple phone call, it is YOU who are doing the alienating. I was merely reaching out and got rejected - by YOU.

I don't recall ribshaw saying, "Me no likely." I still wish you luck with plucking on a keyboard, thinking you are making a measurable difference.

[ribshaw]

I don't recall ribshaw saying, "Me no likely."

He said it on another thread, always yammering about something that one is. More so when he does not have enough sandwich left over to feed the pigeons.

I just checked and there are 667 users on line, which is pretty much the norm at any given time. Who knows why they are here or for what they might be researching. Some will be able to save their money from one pernicious game or another. There is NO more cost effective way to get that many people in one place and give them information. I think you underestimate the power of the written word versus whatever your plan to shutter Amway might be. Amway operates similar to a cult in keeping messages simple, repeating them often, separating members from unbelievers, then letting visions of financial freedom take over. Nothing has changed in almost forty years of their methods or their lack of results for the 99% of distributors FTC be damned.

There is an old saying "You can't cheat an honest man", which is mostly true as it relates to confidence games. We have NO way of knowing how many people did not get roped into something because of what was written here,there, or elsewhere. It will never be zero, life just doesn't work that way. I will be interested to see what happens with Herbalife, but right now I am betting on a lil slappy poo, a new mission statement, and business as usual. With that environment, me thinks it best to give people information and hope they process it and make sound decision.

Good luck just the same.

[Textex]

He said it on another thread, always yammering about something that one is. More so when he does not have enough sandwich left over to feed the pigeons.

I just checked and there are 667 users on line, which is pretty much the norm at any given time. Who knows why they are here or for what they might be researching. Some will be able to save their money from one pernicious game or another. There is NO more cost effective way to get that many people in one place and give them information. I think you underestimate the power of the written word versus whatever your plan to shutter Amway might be. Amway operates similar to a cult in keeping messages simple, repeating them often, separating members from unbelievers, then letting visions of financial freedom take over. Nothing has changed in almost forty years of their methods or their lack of results for the 99% of distributors FTC be damned.

There is an old saying "You can't cheat an honest man", which is mostly true as it relates to confidence games. We have NO way of knowing how many people did not get roped into something because of what was written here,there, or elsewhere. It will never be zero, life just doesn't work that way. I will be interested to see what happens with Herbalife, but right now I am betting on a lil slappy poo, a new mission statement, and business as usual. With that environment, me thinks it best to give people information and hope they process it and make sound decision.

Good luck just the same.

"He" said it? Do you normally refer to yourself in the 3rd person?

Thanks for proving my point:
1. "Nothing has changed in almost forty years of their methods or their lack of results for the 99% of distributors...." then "I think you underestimate the power of the written word versus whatever your plan to shutter Amway might be." I think you grossly overestimate how consequential this blog is, and the results are the proof.
2. I just check, and there are 3 on this thread. LOL
3. "Who knows why they are here or for what they might be researching." - I think it's mainly people endlessly typing and refusing to make a simple phone call.
4. How many people are being scammed by FHTM right now? It is zero, life works that way when you apply yourselves.
5. You're interested in "watching" the Herbalife saga, I'm interested in LEVERAGING it.

[ribshaw]

"He" said it? Do you normally refer to yourself in the 3rd person?

Your query makes ribshaw giggle.

I got three favorite cars, that get most of my job done. I got "and", "but", and "or", They'll get you pretty far. "And": That's an additive, like "this and that".
"But": That's sort of the opposite, "Not this *but* that". And then there's "or":

2. I just check, and there are 3 on this thread. LOL

Yes but there are 2500 threads, maybe if you would share more folks would take interest. I mean how long are you going to really keep it a secret if it is any good? Surely when someone at Amway realizes all the drinking fountains are plugged with Bubblicious word will spread.

These folks are doing something here, mostly my mum and her sewing club but whatever.
Current active users.JPG

Thanks for proving my point:

1. "Nothing has changed in almost forty years of their methods or their lack of results for the 99% of distributors...." then "I think you underestimate the power of the written word versus whatever your plan to shutter Amway might be." I think you grossly overestimate how consequential this blog is, and the results are the proof.

Trying to get you dig a little deeper into WHY people continue to join Amway and WHY the government has failed to act, may help you with your quest. One seldom hears about people that don't join and the reason why. But if I helped prove a point for you, then no need to thank me I try not to keep score.

4. How many people are being scammed by FHTM right now? It is zero, life works that way when you apply yourselves.
5. You're interested in "watching" the Herbalife saga, I'm interested in LEVERAGING it.

Its like this in the world I call home: Raj Rajaratnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and Angelo Mozilo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for all intents and purposes did the same thing, some variation of insider trading. One will be sitting in jail for a very long time, the other on a yacht somewheres. And don't get me started on these crooked assholes who couldn't even tolerate a piece of watered down legislation that tromped on their avarice Congress Quietly Repeals Congressional Insider Trading Ban · NYU Local

All that to say, FHTM aint Amway and the law is not applied equally when a company is or has filled the pockets of the folks who are supposed to enforce it.

But again good luck, I hope you prove me wrong. I am plenty tired of being pestered with some variation of "hey do you want to make some money on the side", and it turns out to be Amway or dressing like Little Bo Peep.

[Whip]

you really need to get over yourself dude. You have no idea what anyone else is doing to make a difference.

[Textex]

you really need to get over yourself dude. You have no idea what anyone else is doing to make a difference.

I got over myself a LONG time ago, it's the others on this blog that can't get over themselves, "dude." Or more accurately, they can't get over their fear. Since people are unwilling to make a simple phone call, I have a very good idea what else is being done - next to nothing. Otherwise, you would have responded to multiply our efforts and impact when the offer was made. Empty words, as usual. LOL

[littleroundman]

Since people are unwilling to make a simple phone call, HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW WHAT PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO DO, OR HAVE DONE ??
HERE'S A HINT FOR YOU, POKEY. IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE TO POST HERE AND MAKE PHONE CALLS AND CONTACT LEGISLATORS AND FILE COMPLAINTS WITH MULTIPLE AUTHORITIES AND IT CAN BE DONE WITH A MINIMUM OF FUSS AND NO NEED TO PUBLICIZE THE FACT OR SEEK ANYONES' APPROVAL

I have a very good idea what else is being done - YOU HAVEN'T GOT A BLOODY CLUE

Otherwise, you would have responded to multiply our efforts and impact when the offer was made. UNLESS, OF COURSE, YOUR WINNING PERSONALITY, PREVIOUS BEHAVIOR ON OTHER FORUMS AND SCINTILLATING WIT HAVE CONVINCED PEOPLE YOU'RE NOT THE TYPE OF PERSON WITH WHOM THEY WISH TO BE ASSOCIATED AND ARE MORE LIKELY TO ALIENATE THE VERY PEOPLE THEY SEEK TO INFLUENCE

Empty words as usual. THE ESSENCE OF GOOD COMMUNICATION CAN BE FOUND IN THE RESULTS IT ACHIEVES. IF THIS IS THE "USUAL" RESPONSE YOU GET, MIGHT I RESPECTFULLY SUGGEST YOU LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND EXAMINE YOUR OWN COMMUNICATION SKILLS RATHER THAN BLAME OTHERS FOR YOUR LACK OF RESULTS

IOW, pokey, if you don't like the way other people operate, REALSCAM.com doesn't measure up to your lofty standards and your SEO results are of a superior level, the exit is down the hall on your left

CHEERIO,

CYA

[Textex]

IOW, pokey, if you don't like the way other people operate, REALSCAM.com doesn't measure up to your lofty standards and your SEO results are of a superior level, the exit is down the hall on your left

CHEERIO,

CYA

Confident people reach out, scared people lash out. So you're scared, too? LOL

[littleroundman]

So you're scared, too? LOL

as I said, "scintillating wit"