Textex's Amway Is The Trunk Of The MLM Tree, Let's Chop It Down Thread Gone Wild!

[Nourjan]

A simple phone call would have prevented the numerous errors in your message. LOL (that was my affable coming out)

Instead of going for this whole pointless tit for tats(which goes for everyone) ,perhaps you you can points out the errors in his post and correct them instead ?

[Textex]

Instead of going for this whole pointless tit for tats(which goes for everyone) ,perhaps you you can points out the errors in his post and correct them instead ?

Perhaps I could, but it would never end. LOL (yes, affably)

My Skype ID and free conference call number can be found here: L. Call To Action – What Else Can We Do? | Stop The Amway Tool Scam

[Textex]

Sorry to scare everyone with the call option details, but I just wanted you to know I will probably be talking with EagleOne this Thursday at 5:00 pm Central time.

So if Armageddon occurs at that time, you'll know it was my fault. LOL

[Textex]

Looks like the moderator goons put me in another thread, in an attempt to bury me, because they know they are cowards.

That's okay, this way I won't scare as many people by suggesting a phone call. LOL

[Char]

Sorry to scare everyone with the call option details, but I just wanted you to know I will probably be talking with EagleOne this Thursday at 5:00 pm Central time.

So if Armageddon occurs at that time, you'll know it was my fault. LOL

Yeah well, my bicycle is faster than yours!!!

[Textex]

I think you meant your tricycle is faster than my bicycle. Or do you have a "bicycle" with training wheels? LOL

[ribshaw]

So much typing, so little change.....LOL (affably, of course!)

YawnYawn Collage.jpg


==========================================

Unrelated to above yawny faces.


Something that has always bothered me about Amway/MLM/Get Rich Quick(GRQ) is the focus on a moneyed lifestyle rather than actually building wealth. A common theme in MLM is "fake it till you make it" on the failed premise that one day an affiliate will build up a business that will throw off passive income like the triple fountain at the Steak Corral throws off chocolate. In the interim affiliates not only blow a lot of money on products, tools, and claptrap rallies, they often run up a bunch of debt to portray an image. Most of us would end up better off using "Amway Time" delivering pizzas for a few years in a beat up car and actually building a stack than leasing a Mercedes to look like an MLM playah.

One very distinct option for the 99% of us in building wealth, accumulate assets that at some point can be converted to income. This requires building a kitty whilst spending less money than we make. This equation holds constant regardless of how much income, working at our own business or for someone else. It is almost as if we see the exact opposite with some of the alleged top earners in MLM. Some real questions exist how much many are really earning, where the money truly comes from, and some curious bankruptcies. Could it be that if one continues to portray an illusion of affluence it falls apart quickly when the cash flow stops? There is certainly some history of high level MLM distributors and GRQ hucksters with money problems.

Do As I Say, Not As I Do: Team Leaders’ Bankruptcy Filings | AMTHRAX

The Salty Droid – Herbalife’s Bankruptcy Business

Amway WWDB Triple Diamond Greg Duncan Bankrupt! | MLM Blog - Network Marketing Blog

Did you ever find out that your mlm upline made no money themselves?

This ethos of passive income business building in the MLM culture is a bit of a farce as well. Even if an affiliate builds up a massive "business", it is not always theirs. In many cases the affiliate agreement that MLMers sign make them legally speaking nothing more than glorified employees sans FICA. Hell, if they WERE employees many would have better legal recourse. Essentially if the MLM wants to strip the affiliate of their distributorship away it goes. The first and maybe ONLY line of recourse for aggrieved affiliates some form of mediation. I am sure there were never any of these problems experienced by Ex-Amway distributors who were shown the door.


Some good discussion of Amway, MLM and other stuff that will drain your wallet.

All You Need To Know About MLM (Is MLM a Scam?)

[Textex]

The best source of information is Stop The Amway Tool Scam | Amway and the LCKs Caught Me (AND millions of others) – Hook, Line, and Sinker, But The Good Guys Always Win In The End

[Char]

Some good discussion of Amway, MLM and other stuff that will drain your wallet.

All You Need To Know About MLM (Is MLM a Scam?)

I forgot about this beauty. I posted it to SBMs "links" thread under "resources and links".

[Textex]

There's a LOT of good information buried in the long threads of this blog, and you just tried to bury me on this thread, which means more people will be ripped off by Amway. Hope you sleep well with that decision. But the best information, by FAR, is at Stop The Amway Tool Scam | Amway and the LCKs Caught Me (AND millions of others) – Hook, Line, and Sinker, But The Good Guys Always Win In The End

[ribshaw]

This was a bit of a trip down memory lane, I have really forgot how much information is out there on Amway Antics. One of the bigger ruses that exist in Amway(MLM) in my opinion is that of building your "own" business. Surely its your time, energy, and money, but what if things go sideways?

Keeping in mind, affiliates gagged in arbitration can't tell their stories so who knows what stories the walls could tell...

As previously noted, Amway is not offering arbitration as a choice. Amway apparently has little faith in its professed belief that arbitration is "the best and the only way for distributors to work out any disagreements quickly, fairly and inexpensively." If it truly were, most distributors would gladly take that option over filing a lawsuit. So why doesn't Amway offer distributors a choice instead of forcing them into arbitration? And even if arbitration were the better approach, why does Amway further gag distributors to prevent them from discussing their disputes or the resolution of those disputes?

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/AUS/itcbsmaa.htm

================================================
These cases were pre arbitration, and highlight not only seeming unconscionable behavior, but the reason a business owner would be mad to give up their right to sue.

Of particular note is the statement made by an Amway vice president at the end of the following article from the Grand Rapids Business Service Press Summary:

On August 31, 1995, a Grand Rapids, Michigan jury ruled unanimously in favor of Amway distributors, Joan Baker and Shirlee Michaels, in a breach of contract lawsuit against Amway Corporation. The amount of the verdict with interest and attorneys fees is in excess of $1,000,000. The jury had been considering the case since August 7, 1995.

The case involved the transfer of 30 distributorships (representing annual business of approximately $55,000, plus other bonuses) from the Baker's and Michael's organization without their permission or knowledge. Baker and Michaels contended, and the jury agreed, that Amway violated its Business Reference Manual which contains the contract between Amway and its 2 Million Distributors. Baker and Michaels stated:

"We are pleased that our jury told Amway it cannot change 'the deal' in midstream. The contract provision that gives Amway the right to make new rules for future application doesn't allow Amway to violate existing rules. We think this verdict sends Amway a strong message that they were wrong. We would have liked a larger award, but once we understood how the jury calculated damages, we think they reached a fair result. We were very anxious about filing a lawsuit against a $6 Billion company in their home town but our Attorney asked the jury to be fair and they were."

The dispute goes to the heart of the Amway Business Plan which states that business which is built by distributors belongs to them, can be passed on to their heirs and can not be arbitrarily taken from them.

The Amway Vice President who made the transfer of the Baker/Michaels Distributors to another Amway organization contended that he "has the authority to waive Contract Rules and would do it again."

Amway: The Untold Story: Baker v. Amway

***********************************

Gommeringer v. Amway Corporation, U.S. District Court, Western District of Michigan, Southern Division, 9/85

This one really has to be seen to be believed. The Gommeringers seemed to be living testimonials to the principles of hard work and free enterprise so often preached by Amway's founders. Joining Amway in 1969, the Gommeringers devoted 15 years to building a network of more than 50,000, and attained the level of Crown Direct, the second-highest "pin level" attainable in Amway. When Amway was charged with fraud in 1983 by the Canadian govt., the Gommeringers, believing in the integrity and honesty of DeVos and Van Andel, defended them, despite the fact that their Amway business suffered as a result of the negative publicity. When DeVos and Van Andel plead guilty later that year to criminal fraud, their business was further impacted.

The Gommeringers worked for over a year to overcome the enormous negative effect that the criminal activities of Amway's owners had on their business, only to have Amway Corp. terminate their distributorships over a disputed $87.00 annual renewal fee. (Yup, you read that right.) The Gommeringers, who had relied on Amway's integrity and promises that their Amway business would not be taken from them without just cause and due process, were ruined. It seems very likely that there was something else behind Amway's bizarre and vindictive action, but we'll probably never know; following their usual pattern, Amway settled the case before it could go before a jury and the facts be made public. The only hint we have is a comment made by the Gommeringer's attorney concerning the possibility that the Gommeringers were planning to sell competing products to their downline. Even if this were the case, Amway's own rules clearly state that distributors may sell non-Amway products to those whom they directly sponsor. This rule, in fact, is what allows the "tools" business to exist, despite the fact that the illegal and unethical activities it fosters have caused Amway no end of legal hassles and bad publicity. It's interesting that Amway has done so little to get rid of those distributors who are commiting serious abuses of Amway's rules, but they'll violate their own rules to get rid of distributors who have done nothing wrong.

One issue raised in the Gommeringer case is that of Amway's responsibility (or lack thereof) to conduct itself in an ethical and legal manner. The Gommeringers charged that Amway had damaged their business through its admitted criminal actions in the Canadian fraud case (see count III of the Complaint below). The judge in the case dismissed this count on the grounds that Amway's distributor contract, which includes all rules published in Amway's distributor Code of Conduct, obligates only distributors to act in a legal and ethical manner; Amway Corp. itself has no obligation to its distributors to do the same. How comforting.

Should there be any doubt that the disputed renewal fees were Amway's sole stated reason for terminating a Crown Direct distributorship and financially (and emotionally) ruining these distributors, here is Amway's answer to the charge made in paragraph 16 of Count II below:

"16. Admitted."

--Defendant's Answer To Plaintiff's Second Amended Complaint And Demand For Trial By Jury, filed 10/21/87

================================================

Who knows about these, but it sure does sound like what would happen to an employee, not a business owner with a fair Non Compete.

Seven months later I joined another network marketing company. A few of the people who were formerly in my Quixtar group contacted me and asked to join my new business. I made sure they had completed their six-month non-compete in Quixtar’s rules, and then registered them with my new business.

Quixtar has sued me in Arbitration saying that I violated the Non-Solicitation clause. They are asking for millions of dollars in damages because of the lost business I caused them. (Remember, these are people who had already quit Quixtar before I quit!!!) I have to take this seriously because I will be held to any judgement the arbitrator decides on. And the last guy that I know of who was sued by Quixtar in arbitration was ordered to pay Quixtar $12 million

Read more: AMWAY /QUIXTAR Contract Warning EveryJoe

***********************************

Amway claimed that bHIP improperly induced distributors to join bHIP and sell bHIP products rather than Amway products.

Amway Does Something Unusual

================================================
This was a hot mess, if I remember correctly when it first went to arbitration it was found $1,000,000 was due the plaintiffs and $7,000,000 was due Amway the defendant. Having home court advantage in arbitration has its upside. Dexter Yeager is the man at Amway...

Defendants further represented to Plaintiffs that despite anything the Amway organization might say, the Amway rules and regulations were irrelevant and should be disregarded, and that Amway would not dare interfere with the way the Yager organization was run, because Yager could always pull his downline organization out of Amway, which would significantly harm Amway.

AUS: Morrison Lawsuit

================================================

Sure, it is "YOUR" business to sell. Unless Amway wants to change the rules on a case by case basis.

The Court of Appeals held that Amway could not, under the terms of its agreement, modify the rules affecting transfers of downline distributors on a case-by-case basis.

Can Amway modify its distributor agreement on a case-by-case basis? | Michaels v. Amway Corp. , 206 Mich. App. 644 (1994) | Babener & Associates - JDSupra

[Textex]

Aren't you glad all of your work is buried in this sideline thread? LOL

[ribshaw]

Aren't you glad all of your work is buried in this sideline thread? LOL

When we parted ways on Friday this thread had about 600 views, now 1800. Once my auntie tells her friends at the cross stitch club that her favorite nephie poo has new work up, 6 xtra pair of peepers easy. This is like a day fishin for me, without the skeeters and worms. If some scammer has to find a new mark as a result, well that's better than complimentary pudding at the diner.

[Textex]

It could have been 18,000. That's a complimentary chicken fried steak, okra, corn grits, AND pudding at the diner. And go ahead and throw in an iced tea, do you prefer sweetened or unsweetened? LOL

[littleroundman]

and you just tried to bury me on this thread,

It's called "that's what happens"

Surely you don't expect to be able to act like an ignorant moron and be treated any differently than you are.

[Textex]

Nice job of taking one part of one sentence out of context. And you wonder why I don't want to trade messages on this blog. LOL

Bottom line: YOU are responsible for people being ripped off, so sleep soundly tonight! LOL

[littleroundman]

Nice job of taking one part of one sentence out of context.

Oh, I can do better than that if you like.

For example, I could take each of the posts where you slip in 4 or 5 gratuitous insults and a couple of childish "LOLS" and point out each one of them, but, I'm quite content to point out one example of your winning way with words at a time.

[Textex]

Of course you would, smallfatboy, that's par for the course! It is FULLY consistent with being too scared to make a simple phone call! LOL

[Whip]

It's called "that's what happens"

Surely you don't expect to be able to act like an ignorant moron and be treated any differently than you are.

I think he pretty much has proven he does. At least I don't have to see this from him anymore:

[Textex]

Oh, someone else who is afraid to make a simple phone call and thinks this thread should be pushed aside, guaranteeing more people are scammed by Amway. Sleep well tonight, Whip. LOL Thanks for the cartoon, now I know the level of "competition" I have on this blog! LOL

[Char]

This was a bit of a trip down memory lane, I have really forgot how much information is out there on Amway Antics. One of the bigger ruses that exist in Amway(MLM) in my opinion is that of building your "own" business. Surely its your time, energy, and money, but what if things go sideways?

Keeping in mind, affiliates gagged in arbitration can't tell their stories so who knows what stories the walls could tell...

As previously noted, Amway is not offering arbitration as a choice. Amway apparently has little faith in its professed belief that arbitration is "the best and the only way for distributors to work out any disagreements quickly, fairly and inexpensively." If it truly were, most distributors would gladly take that option over filing a lawsuit. So why doesn't Amway offer distributors a choice instead of forcing them into arbitration? And even if arbitration were the better approach, why does Amway further gag distributors to prevent them from discussing their disputes or the resolution of those disputes?

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/AUS/itcbsmaa.htm

================================================
These cases were pre arbitration, and highlight not only seeming unconscionable behavior, but the reason a business owner would be mad to give up their right to sue.

Of particular note is the statement made by an Amway vice president at the end of the following article from the Grand Rapids Business Service Press Summary:

On August 31, 1995, a Grand Rapids, Michigan jury ruled unanimously in favor of Amway distributors, Joan Baker and Shirlee Michaels, in a breach of contract lawsuit against Amway Corporation. The amount of the verdict with interest and attorneys fees is in excess of $1,000,000. The jury had been considering the case since August 7, 1995.

The case involved the transfer of 30 distributorships (representing annual business of approximately $55,000, plus other bonuses) from the Baker's and Michael's organization without their permission or knowledge. Baker and Michaels contended, and the jury agreed, that Amway violated its Business Reference Manual which contains the contract between Amway and its 2 Million Distributors. Baker and Michaels stated:

"We are pleased that our jury told Amway it cannot change 'the deal' in midstream. The contract provision that gives Amway the right to make new rules for future application doesn't allow Amway to violate existing rules. We think this verdict sends Amway a strong message that they were wrong. We would have liked a larger award, but once we understood how the jury calculated damages, we think they reached a fair result. We were very anxious about filing a lawsuit against a $6 Billion company in their home town but our Attorney asked the jury to be fair and they were."

The dispute goes to the heart of the Amway Business Plan which states that business which is built by distributors belongs to them, can be passed on to their heirs and can not be arbitrarily taken from them.

The Amway Vice President who made the transfer of the Baker/Michaels Distributors to another Amway organization contended that he "has the authority to waive Contract Rules and would do it again."

Amway: The Untold Story: Baker v. Amway

***********************************

Gommeringer v. Amway Corporation, U.S. District Court, Western District of Michigan, Southern Division, 9/85

This one really has to be seen to be believed. The Gommeringers seemed to be living testimonials to the principles of hard work and free enterprise so often preached by Amway's founders. Joining Amway in 1969, the Gommeringers devoted 15 years to building a network of more than 50,000, and attained the level of Crown Direct, the second-highest "pin level" attainable in Amway. When Amway was charged with fraud in 1983 by the Canadian govt., the Gommeringers, believing in the integrity and honesty of DeVos and Van Andel, defended them, despite the fact that their Amway business suffered as a result of the negative publicity. When DeVos and Van Andel plead guilty later that year to criminal fraud, their business was further impacted.

The Gommeringers worked for over a year to overcome the enormous negative effect that the criminal activities of Amway's owners had on their business, only to have Amway Corp. terminate their distributorships over a disputed $87.00 annual renewal fee. (Yup, you read that right.) The Gommeringers, who had relied on Amway's integrity and promises that their Amway business would not be taken from them without just cause and due process, were ruined. It seems very likely that there was something else behind Amway's bizarre and vindictive action, but we'll probably never know; following their usual pattern, Amway settled the case before it could go before a jury and the facts be made public. The only hint we have is a comment made by the Gommeringer's attorney concerning the possibility that the Gommeringers were planning to sell competing products to their downline. Even if this were the case, Amway's own rules clearly state that distributors may sell non-Amway products to those whom they directly sponsor. This rule, in fact, is what allows the "tools" business to exist, despite the fact that the illegal and unethical activities it fosters have caused Amway no end of legal hassles and bad publicity. It's interesting that Amway has done so little to get rid of those distributors who are commiting serious abuses of Amway's rules, but they'll violate their own rules to get rid of distributors who have done nothing wrong.

One issue raised in the Gommeringer case is that of Amway's responsibility (or lack thereof) to conduct itself in an ethical and legal manner. The Gommeringers charged that Amway had damaged their business through its admitted criminal actions in the Canadian fraud case (see count III of the Complaint below). The judge in the case dismissed this count on the grounds that Amway's distributor contract, which includes all rules published in Amway's distributor Code of Conduct, obligates only distributors to act in a legal and ethical manner; Amway Corp. itself has no obligation to its distributors to do the same. How comforting.

Should there be any doubt that the disputed renewal fees were Amway's sole stated reason for terminating a Crown Direct distributorship and financially (and emotionally) ruining these distributors, here is Amway's answer to the charge made in paragraph 16 of Count II below:

"16. Admitted."

--Defendant's Answer To Plaintiff's Second Amended Complaint And Demand For Trial By Jury, filed 10/21/87

================================================

Who knows about these, but it sure does sound like what would happen to an employee, not a business owner with a fair Non Compete.

Seven months later I joined another network marketing company. A few of the people who were formerly in my Quixtar group contacted me and asked to join my new business. I made sure they had completed their six-month non-compete in Quixtar’s rules, and then registered them with my new business.

Quixtar has sued me in Arbitration saying that I violated the Non-Solicitation clause. They are asking for millions of dollars in damages because of the lost business I caused them. (Remember, these are people who had already quit Quixtar before I quit!!!) I have to take this seriously because I will be held to any judgement the arbitrator decides on. And the last guy that I know of who was sued by Quixtar in arbitration was ordered to pay Quixtar $12 million

Read more: AMWAY /QUIXTAR Contract Warning EveryJoe

***********************************

Amway claimed that bHIP improperly induced distributors to join bHIP and sell bHIP products rather than Amway products.

Amway Does Something Unusual

================================================
This was a hot mess, if I remember correctly when it first went to arbitration it was found $1,000,000 was due the plaintiffs and $7,000,000 was due Amway the defendant. Having home court advantage in arbitration has its upside. Dexter Yeager is the man at Amway...

Defendants further represented to Plaintiffs that despite anything the Amway organization might say, the Amway rules and regulations were irrelevant and should be disregarded, and that Amway would not dare interfere with the way the Yager organization was run, because Yager could always pull his downline organization out of Amway, which would significantly harm Amway.

AUS: Morrison Lawsuit

================================================

Sure, it is "YOUR" business to sell. Unless Amway wants to change the rules on a case by case basis.

The Court of Appeals held that Amway could not, under the terms of its agreement, modify the rules affecting transfers of downline distributors on a case-by-case basis.

Can Amway modify its distributor agreement on a case-by-case basis? | Michaels v. Amway Corp. , 206 Mich. App. 644 (1994) | Babener & Associates - JDSupra

Who cares Ribshaw? Let's just focus on the tools scam.

[Textex]

Yes, ribshaw, let's post the same stuff over and over again where hardly anyone sees it, and fool ourselves into thinking we are making a difference! After all, we're too scared to make a simple phone call, so let's post post post away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

[Whip]

Who cares Ribshaw? Let's just focus on the tools scam.

no need. textex will save the day!

[Char]

Yes, ribshaw, let's post the same stuff over and over again where hardly anyone sees it, and fool ourselves into thinking we are making a difference! After all, we're too scared to make a simple phone call, so let's post post post away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

So you agree then that MLM is a scheme in numerous ways but you just don't think blogging is effective?

Or, you think there's nothing wrong with MLM except the tools scam? Because surely you would not have fallen for it for SIX LONG YEARS!!!

[ribshaw]

ribshaw,

thank you for taking the time and interest to contribute to a thread I started on Realscam.com. I realize that since I have been here I have done nothing but whine like a teething child and offered little of value. It is as if I invited myself someone's home, blew my nose on the drapes, bitched about the cooking, the way they raised their children and then wondered why I didn't feel welcome. While certainly you have other commitments like family, business, and life you cared enough to do what people do on a blog. DARE I SAY REVOLUTIONARY ON YOUR PART.

You have really added some things that people can use to aid them in making a sound decision about Amway. And links to some great blogs so the work of others of like mind can be shared. While I realize some of these things have been written before, that is true of the whole scam world, maybe you just enjoy writing. While I have been blogging for many years, I have not achieved the results that I had hoped. Some say it is because I come across as so angry, others just find my writing plain ole boring. Through you I now have several more pens in my pocket protector and will shutter 1/2 of the tools business for sure. One other thing I will take away from our time together is if I spend a little less time thinking about myself and more time doing things for the benefit of others I might find myself in a better place. Thank you so much for not giving up on me.

Thanks TexTex that is nice of you to say. There is nothing saying you can't start CONTRIBUTING here, and really blow this thread up with good information. Enough good stuff and people may even forget the first 7 pages of ego and start seeing YOU as the go to guy on Amway.