Thread: Investing with an Eye on Fraud Prevention

Originally Posted by Fendaril

What was the first thing that convinced you kiyosaki was a charlatan.

It was a process with Kiyosaki, and one that "ground my gears" the longer he continued to publish the same drivel while contradicting himself. A lack of specifics, a lack of understanding of the tax code, and inconsistencies of a 9 year old remembering verbatim wisdom imparted on him by his fakeo rich dad that day, much less 30 years later. I started with Rich Dad Poor Dad and found it motivational which is something, but like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Million_Little_Pieces and other Oprah book club selections it belonged in the fiction section.

Incidentally RDPD never mentioned MLM even though Kiyosaki was a failed Amway distributor. He started to LVE network marketing once they started buying his books which is exactly how he plundered his loot. I initially heard about the book from an Amway rep attempting to prospect me in the business section of a Barnes and Noble.

To give you a short example, I have a friend that runs a successful business and decided to buy a rental property as an investment. A move right out of RDPD and a zillion other get rich quick books.
Although he had it inspected, there was electrical work not up to code missed to the tune of about $5000. In Kiyosaki's world, maybe he sues the inspector, maybe he wins a judgement, and maybe the guy willingly pays. In the real world my buddy ate the $5000 and lost his first years profit.

He used a management company, the first significant problem that cropped up required hours of my friend's time to sort out. This never happens in Robert's world. After the first year his tenants moved out and the carpet needed to be replaced along with a few other repairs before it could be rented. There goes profit for year two. At this point in RDPD my buddy would be retired and selling that house for 3X what he paid.

It's not that I think real estate is a bad way to go, it's that there is real world and fantasy land. Kiyosaki is preying on working people running up a bunch of credit card debt to pay for his mediocre training and sometimes dangerous advice.
Contrary to "rich dad" I consider it very sound planning for many people to stay in school (academic and/or technical) get skills that are in demand and save money in vehicles like index funds that take next to ZERO time to manage. For $50 a month any investor could have fractional ownership in 5000 companies and never have to replace a shred of carpet.


That he's ramping up his stock and option market rhetoric in lieu of folks taking a well planned balanced approach that he could have given them 20 years ago(assuming he even had a clue) only serves to further my belief he is a charlatan.

Originally Posted by Fendaril

And after you answer that, please tell me your opinions on Tony Robbins. Do you view him as a charlatan?

Maybe a little more nuanced although if "charlatan" is the only adjective I can choose then yes. He has coached many very successful people though the years, that can't be dismissed. By the same token without going completely down another rabbit hole, that's not the same as taking homeless schizophrenics and turning them into a corner office CEOs with a few affirmations and hand claps. As with Kiyosaki I have some books and tapes from Robbins, no doubt he's one of the best at pumping people up.


Staying on topic, Robbins too became a "money guru" with tactics pulled straight from the pages of Wade Cook.

except for that "big-tooth phony from San Diego," Tony Robbins, who Cook dismisses as a "copycat." (BMB, p. 70)
Foolish Feature, 10/06/97: The Magic and Majesty of Wade B. Cook, by Randy Befumo

Financial seminar guru Wade Cook also sued Robbins for copyright infringement and plagiarism, alleging that Robbins used proprietary terms in his seminars and from Cook's book Wall Street Money Machine. In 1998, a Tacoma, Washington, jury ordered Robbins to pay Cook $650,900 in damages. The order to pay damages was temporarily withdrawn[26] until 2000, when the 9th Circuit Court ruled that the trial judge had misinterpreted the statutes. The verdict and damages were reinstated with a statement that "The Court found that U.S. District Court Judge, Jack Tanner, erred in "finding a conclusion contrary to the jury award" and sent instructions to reinstate the award. Cook's lead attorney said "This is a landmark decision by the 9th Circuit Court because of the high profile players and issues at stake. The Court is telling individuals that, no matter who you are, the protection of copyrightable material will be preserved." Robbins was forced to pay the entire amount
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Robbins



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Robbins like many a man divorced his older wife and traded her for a young model. Which is what it is, and marriages fail, but most people aren't teaching high priced seminars about how couples can live with passion in their marriages.

MOTIVATOR SELF-HELPED HIMSELF TO MY WIFE: EX | New York Post

I've looked for a better link so take this with a grain of salt. Tony Robbins - Uncyclopedia, the content-free encyclopedia If I recall correctly Tony settled sexual a few sexual harassment suits. As with the divorce I can't speak to the merits of the situations, and filing suits is not unheard of justified or not against powerful people. Still along the lines of the "live with passion" spiel, isn't Tony supposed to be the guy that puts people in a positive state of mind and brings out their best?

Then there is the whole hot coal thingy.

Third Degree Self-Realization: Dozens Injured In Robbins Fire Walking Exercise | JONATHAN TURLEY
Anthony Robbins UPW - very BAD experience

Part II on Robbins: MONEY Master the Game: 7 Simple Steps to Financial Freedom

Where part of the nuance comes in.

All profits from this book being donated to a charity I believe does needed work very efficiently. Tony Robbins and Feeding America® Launch New Partnership on Giving Tuesday 2014 to Help Families in Need

This book is 600+ pages, about 300 too long due to motivational stories in my opinion. Tony could have used this space to give people a complete financial self help guide with a chapter on properly vetting a money professional if that's what they need. The advice overall was sound, and is worth a read as part of someone's collection. The distaste I have with the book is it is a lead generation tool for other businesses Robbins appears to have a financial interest in. It would be nice just once not have everything be one more upsell.



Link to the most helpful review.
http://www.amazon.com/review/R34NR18...e=digital-text


The Salty Droid – Tony Robbins

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/17/yo...ife-coach.html

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Also advocate digging into these books and blog before Robbins tome. All the meat, without the filler.


http://www.amazon.com/Little-Book-Co.../dp/0470102101
https://www.bogleheads.org/
http://www.amazon.com/Random-Walk-Do...dp_kinw_strp_1

Interesting and clever.

He actually used his book to promote a type of annuity that didn't come out yet, and one that would appeal to millennials who are scared of their future.

If the insurer didn't pull out, than he would have had a nice juicy pay-day lined up for him.

He definitely knows how to hype things up and make people feel like whatever he has can fix whatever problem fast and easy.

"Indeed, the annuity he promised in the book does not exist yet because the first insurer withdrew right after the book went to press. He and his partners are working with another insurer now and expect the new product to emerge in the third quarter of this year. "

"But then, he hits readers with this promise: “Turn the page, and let me show you the five types of annuities that could change your life.” And then, on 428, the zinger: “Upside without the downside.”

It's dangerous promises like the one quoted above that causes a lot of problems. But, sales and marketing isn't perfect...

"In his book, Mr. Robbins describes fixed indexed annuities as an “elevator that can only go up.” The Securities and Exchange Commission, however, says the opposite quite bluntly: “You can lose money buying an indexed annuity.”"

If anyone tells me an investment strategy that worked like an elevator only going up, please send me a PM. I will split the profits with you.

FINRA Securities Helpline for Seniors - HELPS™

A toll-free number that senior investors can call to get assistance from FINRA or raise concerns about issues with brokerage accounts and investments.
Call 844-57-HELPS (844-574-3577)
Monday – Friday
9 a.m. – 5 p.m. Eastern Time
- See more at: FINRA Securities Helpline for Seniors - HELPS

I believe this is still in the comment period.

Finra Would Allow Brokers to Block Trades to Protect Seniors - WSJ

Originally Posted by ribshaw

FINRA Securities Helpline for Seniors - HELPS™

A toll-free number that senior investors can call to get assistance from FINRA or raise concerns about issues with brokerage accounts and investments.
Call 844-57-HELPS (844-574-3577)
Monday – Friday
9 a.m. – 5 p.m. Eastern Time
- See more at: FINRA Securities Helpline for Seniors - HELPS

I believe this is still in the comment period.

Finra Would Allow Brokers to Block Trades to Protect Seniors - WSJ

Two thought provoking articles on caring for elderly parents and what might go wrong under the guise of good intentions when parents haven't emphatically articulated how they expect to be cared for.

When It’s Time to Transfer Financial Decision-Making

Abuse Plagues System of Legal Guardians for Adults - WSJ

Equity Tradings.JPG

I really wanted to post this discussion in the humor thread but that would be immature. Someone messaged me about https://equitytradings.com/ on Facebook. Other than massive red flags like hidden owners, not being registered with the SEC, and never before in the history of the world off the charts claims weekly returns I didn't dig too deep. Called it a scam and moved on.

https://www.scamadviser.com/check-we...tytradings.com

https://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-e...ion=getcompany

How shocked was I when someone posted a message that it wasn't a scam.

ME: Yes it is, you better get your money out while you still can.

Numpty: No it isn't you better stop posting crap about things you don't know about.

ME: If their servers are any indication they just ran off with your money. Equitytradings.com - Is Equitytradings Down Right Now?

Numpty:

message deleted.jpg

Classy...


The LetsMakeAPlan.org site has been presenting more than 6,300 planners without showing such problems even though the planners have disclosed them to the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority, according to a Wall Street Journal analysis of more than 72,000 profiles on the website.

The Journal compared data on the LetsMakeAPlan.org site against records kept by Finra, an industry-funded watchdog with legal authority to regulate brokers.

Among the planners the Journal’s analysis flagged, more than 5,000 have faced formal complaints from their clients over investment recommendations or sales practices, and hundreds have been disciplined by financial regulators or left brokerage firms amid allegations of misconduct. At least 140 faced or currently face felony charges, including one who pleaded no contest to a charge of possessing child pornography.

Looking for a Financial Planner? The Go-To Website Often Omits Red Flags - WSJ

The Ponzi scheme keeps chugging. To send it off the rails make certain the person investing your money doesn't have personal access to it. Additionally, an independent firm should be auditing and producing your investment statements.

Originally Posted by CNBC article

"Make sure your assets are “custodied,” or held, at a legitimate firm (and not one made up by the broker). These firms are in a position to flag any suspicious activity. And in the event a fraud does occur, investors likely have a better avenue to recover some money in a lawsuit or arbitration, Stoltmann said. Call up the custodian listed on your account statement, ask if you have an active account and what the balance is."

Ponzi schemes hit the highest level in a decade

Certainly important, but don't overlook those you should be able to trust the most.

Opinion: Watch out: Cyber crooks could worm their way into your retirement accounts - MarketWatch

Elder Fraud — FBI

Originally Posted by Gary Weiss

When you think of the villains who defraud older people, you might picture crooks hacking into bank accounts or selling bogus stocks. But don’t be misled.

The real scoundrels might be sitting at your next family gathering, looking as innocent as folks in a Norman Rockwell painting. Roughly 6 out of 10 cases of elder financial abuse are committed by relatives, according to a large-scale 2014 study. And about 3 out of 10 instances can be traced to friends, neighbors or home care aides. In other words, 90 percent of perpetrators of fraud are known to their victims

How to Protect Yourself From Family Fraud