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Unsaved Trash
06-24-2010, 04:42 PM
Most of you reading the MLM boards are familiar with Len Clements, founder, owner and CEO of MarketWave, Inc. http://www.marketwaveinc.com

It would be interesting to hear from anyone that has used Len Clements' services, tools, seminars, "court certified" testimonies, etc. Anyone?

I am questioning more than a few things listed on Len's site. Here is just one example for consideration:



Expert Witness Services


My expert opinion can not be bought!

Terms:

$225.00 per hour
(prorated, no minimum)
$1,500.00 per day, 8 hour maximum
(50% for travel days)

How about rented?

Mike!
06-24-2010, 04:53 PM
You know, that reminds me, I read once that, "money can't buy happiness, but it CAN rent a real good time"...

Porkchop Express
06-24-2010, 05:54 PM
I'm pretty sure good ole Ohein from scam.com could let you know. I think he knows more about Len than Len knows about Len.

Whip
06-24-2010, 05:57 PM
If it can't be bought, why are there prices?
Good to see you again Tom.

nomaxim
06-24-2010, 07:04 PM
Actually, I've always wondered about his choice of a username. I mean, 'mwave' is a trade name for mwave.com (http://www.mwave.com/mwave/index.asp?) which is a computer retailer that's been in business for over 20 years. In their case it stands 'MultiWave Technology Inc.'

GlimDropper
06-24-2010, 07:22 PM
I assumed it's short for Market Wave, his website name, but don't feel safe in making a more affirmative claim than that. Because if were incorrect, even in some minor aspect he'd have a 10,000 word post here explaining that error and drawing conclusions as to my motives for miss-characterizing him on such little information.

And he'd call me a troll. eeep.

Doc Bunkum
06-24-2010, 07:31 PM
Actually, I've always wondered about his choice of a username. I mean, 'mwave' is a trade name for mwave.com (http://www.mwave.com/mwave/index.asp?) which is a computer retailer that's been in business for over 20 years. In their case it stands 'MultiWave Technology Inc.'

Funny, I thought 'mwave' referred to his rickshaw business that he uses to cart tourists around the Las Vegas strip.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41b3rZ3OraL.jpg

Soapboxmom
06-24-2010, 07:48 PM
Well, he called our fine colleagues at JREF Pr!cks. So, luckily he just thinks we are trolls, Glim. If I remember correctly Lenny said he was starting to miss Tom and I. I hope he will finish our lively discussion about all those legal vindications of USANA since he is a "court certified expert" and unpaid "Mensa Member" I guess he couldn't afford the very modest renewal fee for Mensa the last few years. :confused:

Soapboxmom

A Life Aloft
06-24-2010, 08:00 PM
This statement/response is from Lenny pooh to Mr. Donald S. Clark, Secretary Federal Trade Commission 600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Room H-135
N.W. Washington, D.C. 20580.

Please see attached document regarding rebuttal to comments #535221-00040 posted by Robert FitzPatrick (a.k.a. ''Pyramid Scheme Alert''). Len Clements (court certified multilevel marketing expert), Founder and CEO, MarketWave Incorporated. Disclaimers: 1) MarketWave, Inc. is not an MLM company, nor am I a distributor for, or employed by, any MLM company; 2) All facts cited in my rebuttal documents are sourced and verified.

Really? So Lenny lies to the FTC? http://www.ftc.gov/os/comments/bizoprevised/rebuttals/535221-00121.pdf

Interesting.

A Life Aloft
06-24-2010, 08:07 PM
How pathetic is this poor b*****d? ( Mods, I put the astericks in. I, unlike UnSavedTrash, am behaving lol)

http://thatmlmbeat.com/members/mwave/

Seriously?
06-24-2010, 08:12 PM
Maybe on July 14, 2008 he wasn't?

Doc Bunkum
06-24-2010, 08:19 PM
I guess he couldn't afford the very modest renewal fee for Mensa the last few years. :confused:

Soapboxmom

Well, I see he took care of one other piece of business.


Did anyone notice the Marketwave Inc. is presently listed in Default with the Nevada SoS?

It appears that they have not as yet filed their yearly report. It was due last Nov.

Everything appears up to date now - MARKETWAVE, INC. (http://nvsos.gov/sosentitysearch/CorpDetails.aspx?lx8nvq=%252fpQ0YjdFRGK8%252bsKOX7 TP1A%253d%253d&nt7=0)

Hope you appreciate us drawing that matter to your attention, Lenny.

A Life Aloft
06-24-2010, 08:30 PM
I just cannot decide between the product combo pack or just starting out with one book and one cd. Hmmmm........since Heiney bought all of this garbage, perhaps I should ask him what uses he has found for these items thus far.

http://www.marketwaveinc.com/products.asp

books - doorstop
using the pages to line the kitty litter box
using the cds as frisbees
building a cd disco ball
a cd pizza cutter
string the cds together to make a mobile to hang over his tiny bed and wonder how he p****d away his life
hang the cds in a gardento scare the birds away
use the cds as a coaster for the booze he needs to drown his sorrows
use the cds as a plate for toasted bagels
place the cds over the neck of his beer bottles to keep them from spilling
cut a hole in the center of one of the books to hide his fortune. In his case the hole should be about the size of a quarter.
Hide the books in the closet along with all of the other tons of worthless MLM crap he has wasted money on over the years so his wife doesn't chuck one at his head.
So many options............

A Life Aloft
06-24-2010, 08:33 PM
Maybe on July 14, 2008 he wasn't?He was a Usana distributor.

Seriously?
06-24-2010, 08:37 PM
He was a Usana distributor.

Ahhh, well... So much for giving the benefit of the doubt...

Ya blew it, Lenny.

nomaxim
06-24-2010, 08:50 PM
Well, I see he took care of one other piece of business.



Everything appears up to date now - MARKETWAVE, INC. (http://nvsos.gov/sosentitysearch/CorpDetails.aspx?lx8nvq=%252fpQ0YjdFRGK8%252bsKOX7 TP1A%253d%253d&nt7=0)

Hope you appreciate us drawing that matter to your attention, Lenny.Something else on the Business registration I noticed,
Business License Exp: Exempt - 003Per the Nevada SoS 'Exempt - 003' means.
003 A home-based business whose net earnings are not more than 66 2/3 percent of the average annual wageAnybody know what exactly that means?
Is it referring to the national average annual wage?

A Life Aloft
06-24-2010, 08:56 PM
Well, what can you say about a man who freely admits: "Over 96% fail within the first year", according to the estimate by “Inside Network Marketing” author Leonard Clements.

A Life Aloft
06-24-2010, 09:02 PM
Something else on the Business registration I noticed,Per the Nevada SoS 'Exempt - 003' means.Anybody know what exactly that means?
Is it referring to the national average annual wage?"Note: Nevada recently instituted a $200.00 a year Business License. Thus, Nevada requires (NRS 364A) all corporate entities to register for a Nevada Business License ($200.00 charge). Upon completing the form http://sos.state.nv.us/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=1182, mail it to us with your $200.00. If you are a home based business, not having an office for your specific new business, projecting or making less than $26,600.00, the Business License is waived. However, still fill the form out and tell them you are under exemption 003; send no money".

Goodness, this is what Len expects to earn/what he actually does earn? You mean he lies, yet again? Say it isn't so!

Emet
06-24-2010, 09:04 PM
Maybe on July 14, 2008 he wasn't?

Please do not think for a millisecond that I am defending Lennie, because I'm not.


Leonard Wayne Clements was awarded a pre-existing distributor position from USANA Health Sciences near the end of August 2008.This was after Len attempted to defend USANA for the past 18 months against a flood of fraud allegations that hit the company. The company never once defended themselves against the allegations, but Len Clements did it for them. Now USANA gave him a vacated Distributor Position within the company that already has well over 100 distributors in its downline.

Len Clements claims that he was not “awarded” the distributor position, and followed the company’s policies and procedures for a Transfer of Distributorship. However, the policy requires the distributorship be transferred from the previous account owner to the new account owner. Unfortunately for Len, the previous account owner had already left the company and the position was an empty spot that remains within the hierarchy of distributors.

The policies and procedures does not allow the company to give existing distributor positions to their buddies.

So says Michael Webster.

http://bizop.ca/blog2/due-diligence/barry-minkow-versus-len-clemen.html

A Life Aloft
06-24-2010, 09:23 PM
Hmmm, who really knows the exact date. I read that it was July and not made official/announced until August. And, he knew this was coming as he had been in discussions with Usana for some time. It was not like he woke up one day and got a big surprise. lol It's like asking someone who is driving down the road if they ever drive after drinking and they say no, when in fact they have done it dozens of times previously and do it yet again a short time later and are planning to do it again very soon.

This is also interesting:

"Len Clements was given the old distributor position that had already
been vacated. There was no Transfer of Distributorship. Nothing in
USANA's policies and procedures states anything about the company
GIVING away a 15 year old empty distributor account with about 150
distributors already in its downline.

Len Clements used to be VP of Market Research for Zenza and was
recently confirmed by John Milton Fogg that Len Clements was not only
corporate, but a distributor as well. John would know because Len
Clements was the one who recruited him. John Fogg has about 1000+
distributors in his Zenza downline. Now, John Fogg just joined USANA
as a distributor and was recruited by Len Clements. Len Clements still
denies being a distributor for Zenza. However, Len Clements used to
have the Zenza distributor page zenza.us/clements or something like
that. Only distributors have distributor pages.

What you may not know is that Len Clements is currently in a lawsuit
with Zenza. Perhaps you should ask Len why and what it is about.

So I suspect that Len Clements joined USANA after he convinced USANA
to offer the same Matching Bonus plan that Zenza has. As compensation
for Len's work in defending USANA for the past 18 months, USANA gave
him a prime distributor position with an existing downline, which he
would enjoy with the Matching Bonus plan after he becomes Pace Setter
or Platinum Pace Setter. I believe USANA also compensated Len during
this distributorship deal in other ways as well that Len does not want
made public. Len has not denied or confirmed this added compensation.

While Len claims that I am a "Bold Faced Liar", he obviously does not
want USANA distributors to know about his deal with USANA. He
definitely does not want the litigation with Zenza to be made public.

Len does not want distributors to know about his deal with USANA
because the unfairness would be obvious. While most all distributors
join USANA at the bottom of the hierarchy (no distributors already
present in the downline), Len Clements struck a deal with USANA and
was given a prime position with more distributors (pre-existing) in
his downline than 99.9% of USANA distributors have ever had. And you
can't transfer a distributor account from someone who had already
vacated their position.
You wrote "Maybe you should check your facts first"
Maybe you and the rest of the distributors should at least be told the
facts." September 24th, 2008 http://finance.google.com/group/google.finance.660911/browse_thread/thread/5f73a265ee84c613

A Life Aloft
06-24-2010, 09:37 PM
Remember also, that Len was defending all over the net and singing the praises of Usana back in May of '07, no less:

http://www.bizop.ca/blog2/due-diligence/barry_minkow_versus_len_clemen.html

Here is what Robert FitzPatrick had to say to Len:

http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/USANA-FDI-LenClements.htm


And:

"Leonard Wayne Clements was awarded a pre-existing distributor position from USANA Health Sciences in August of 2008. This was after Len attempted to defend USANA for the past 18 months against a flood of fraud allegations that hit the company. The company never once defended themselves against the allegations, but Len Clements did it for them. Now USANA gave him a vacated Distributor Position within the company that already has well over 100 distributors in its downline.

Can we say they were bedfellows for a very long time?

Len Clements claims that he was not “awarded” the distributor position, and followed the company’s policies and procedures for a Transfer of Distributorship. However, the policy requires the distributorship be transferred from the previous account owner to the new account owner. Unfortunately for Len, the previous account owner had already left the company and the position was an empty spot that remains within the hierarchy of distributors.

The policies and procedures does not allow the company to give existing distributor positions to their buddies.

Len Clements recently left ZENZA. He was their Vice President of Market Research of Zenza Life Sciences, LLC. The word now is that he also used to be a distributor for the company as well! Does he plan to move his existing downline from Zenza to his new position at USANA? I will be keeping a very close eye on that!

Here are three questions I ask Len:
1) How many people are in your downline on the leg you claim “doesn’t even always max out”?

2) What else did USANA give you?

3) Did you converse with Christine Cunningham personally to buy her USANA Business? Or did you converse with USANA, and USANA gave you that business center after Christine already left?

Here is Len Clement’s response:
QUOTE
term, I’ve explained in detail exactly why I am not going to answer any more of your questions about my acquiring this position. I clearly told you that I know you are not seeking any truths here, you are simply trolling for more fodder that you can spin and distort. Yet, you continue to ask these same questions over and over. So I must ask you…

1. Are you just ignoring my answer?

2. Are you illiterate?

3. Are you just stupid?

Len"

http://www.multileveler.com/2006/06/len_clements_wrong_works_but_s.html

Emet
06-24-2010, 09:53 PM
Actually, I believe my quote is attributed to terminatedramp on Mr. Webster's blog.

I for one, will always be proud that my one and only direct encounter with Lennie came on the JREF forums, when he challenged me to a telephone debate:


Originally Posted by MWave
Sounds like you would be a great candidate to accept my challenge.

It would be just you and I on a recorded conference call, debating the legitimacy of the MLM industry.

Yes or no?

Len

I responded:


My mother taught I me never to talk to strange...ers.
(the "I "is struck through)

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=6003785&postcount=809

A Life Aloft
06-24-2010, 09:57 PM
I for one, will always be proud that my one and only direct encounter with Lennie came on the JREF forums, when he challenged me to a telephone debate:


In truth, that is how Lenny gets what few dates he has. Caveat emptor.

fastmoney
06-24-2010, 10:12 PM
Has someone invited Lenny to this site?

Maybe we should make him an admin here?

USANAWatchDog
06-24-2010, 11:23 PM
I am the one to uncover and post on the internet the information about Len Clement's USANA distributorship deal. If you have any specific questions regarding Len's USANA relationship, I can provide lots of answers. Most of this was discussed on the Scam.com forum, which apparently is gone forever now.

A Life Aloft
06-24-2010, 11:31 PM
I am the one to uncover and post on the internet the information about Len Clement's USANA distributorship deal. If you have any specific questions regarding Len's USANA relationship, I can provide lots of answers. Most of this was discussed on the Scam.com forum, which apparently is gone forever now.Do you know then, when Lenny really hooked up with them as opposed to when it was "announced"? When was he actually brought on board? How long was he in discussions with Usana prior to this? Was there "something" going on with/between Usana and Lenny even back when he was defending them in 2007?

USANAWatchDog
06-25-2010, 12:13 AM
Here is my summed up story regarding Len Clements' distributorship with USANA.

On April 4, 2008 Len Clements went to lunch with USANA's James Bramble and Riley Timmer. After lunch, they took Len Clements to USANA's headquarters. When Len entered the lobby at USANA's headquarters, every employee was there to congratulate Len on defense of USANA against FDI's pyramid scheme allegations. They gave Len Clements a huge plaque for his work defending USANA against Barry Minkow, Robert Fitzpatrick, Jon Taylor, Tracy Coenen, New Zealand's NBR article, etc... During this visit, Len Clements discussed 1) work defending USANA against FDI, 2) Matching Bonus plan, 3) Deal to become distributor.

1) The defending of USANA against FDI's allegations took place during the time Len was still employed at Zenza as Vice President of Market Research. While Len was doing this, he stopped doing work for Zenza while still being paid by Zenza. Eventually Zenza fired him. Whatever Len wrote on his website for his reasoning for leaving is untrue.

2) USANA never had a matching bonus plan. Len introduced the idea to USANA. USANA bought into the idea and revised it a little bit. So Len knew on April 4, 2008 that a matching bonus plan will be implemented.

3) Len Clements was "Given" an old distributor position. The original owner of the position had left years prior. This particular position is under Pete Zdanis, USANA's 4th top distirbutor in the world. This position had a completely maxed out leg while the other leg was empty. So all Len had to do was recruit people into only one leg. Len claims anyone could have obtained this position because it was done through USANA's Transfer of Distributorship policy. This is UNTRUE however because the original owner had left years prior! USANA is not allowed to GIVE their cronies a valuable distirbutor position. USANA broke their own rules to obtain Len as a distributor.

Several months pass and USANA's annual convention is about to happen. It is the end of August. Just prior to the convention, Len Clements "officially" becomes a USANA distributor. Why did Len wait to become a distributor when he made the deal in April? Well, remember that Matching Bonus plan Len discussed with USANA? The Matching Bonus plan was announced during USANA's annual convention, so it could not start until the announcement. The matching bonus plan requires distributors to become "Platinum Pacesetter" to receive a 100% matching bonus (50% for just Pacesetters). In order to become Platinum Pacesetter, a distributor must recruit a certain number of distributors who all activate their business centers. So had Len joined on April 4, 2008 and recruited anyone, he would not be able to count those recruits in the matching bonus plan. Does that make sense?

So what does Len do? Len recruits John Fogg and Brian Bier as distributors, both of whom he had previously recruited into ZENZA. Len also recruited his own brother. However, Len did not recruit enough people to become "Platinum" Pacesetter. So Len would not receive a 100% matching bonus from his Group Sales Volume. Because of this, Len left USANA to find another MLM (Yoli).

It should be noted that when he recruited John Fogg as a DISTRIBUTOR, Zenza didn't like that very much. As a result, John Fogg was terminated by Zenza! However, Len has placed all the blame on ME for John Fogg being terminated by Zenza. Len claimed that because I disclosed the fact John Fogg was recruited into Len's downline, that I had caused John to be terminated as a Zenza Distributor. Len claims that John Fogg only joined because he wanted to purchase vitamins for his children. OH REALLY LEN? That makes it LENS FAULT for signing John Fogg up as a distributor instead of just a PREFERRED CUSTOMER. (This is why I have no respect for Len Clements and his behavior)

Also, When Len joined USANA's distributorship, Len was added to USANA's "Author Accolades" list. Here is USANA's PDF Document showing Len Clements and his book "Case Closed": USANA ACCOLADE (http://www.usana.com/media/File/Prospecting%20page/Tools/US/USANABusiness/EN-AuthorAccolades.pdf) . The other individuals have been USANA distributors from the beginning of the company's existance. Anyone else here besides me believe Len was given a special deal that no other distributor is given when they join at the bottom of the pyramid scheme?

So when Len leaves USANA, he joins Yoli as a founding distributor. Guess who he recruits into Yoli? John Fogg and Brian Bier. Why these two individuals follow Len around like they do is beyond me.

Have any questions, please ask. I tried to sum up the entire story since the special April 4, 2008 day.

A Life Aloft
06-25-2010, 12:26 AM
Thanks very much for the detailed response. Very interesting. So Lenny did lie to the FTC. Why am I not surprised. I knew this deal with his distributorship and his relationship with Usana went much farther back than his "official" joining. If people had any clue of all the dirt and the backroom deals. It's as bad as politicians and politics. The heavy hitters in many of these MLMs are very cultish and inscestuous. They follow each other around like buzzards to the next road kill, and the fresh pickings of more gullible sheep. It's all about the timing and it's all very carefully planned out and orchestrated. They all know one another. It never ceases to amaze me just how dirty and slimey these people are. They lie their a***s off, cover their a***s, play games and the wording and the phraseology and the way they answer (don't really answer) questions, give out the half truths, all the hype and b.s., the deceptions, the deflections and the dodging. They are masters of it all. Nothing but sleezy con men who have never worked for or earned an honest dollar in their lives.

USANAWatchDog
06-25-2010, 12:48 AM
Do you know then, when Lenny really hooked up with them as opposed to when it was "announced"? When was he actually brought on board? How long was he in discussions with Usana prior to this? Was there "something" going on with/between Usana and Lenny even back when he was defending them in 2007?

Len was officially brought on board as a distributor with USANA toward the end of August. But my previous posting to this shows his special day on April 4, 2008 which shows just how involved he was with USANA.

He was in discussion with USANA back in April or May of 2007, just shortly after Barry Minkow's Fraud Discovery Institute released their fraud report about USANA.

Something was definitely going on between Len and USANA when he was defending USANA against the FDI report. Len was contacting USANA and getting inside information about Denis Waitley, and a video showing Mark Shurtleff endorsing USANA during one of their annual conventions.

Denis Waitley was one of USANA's board of directors (his ex-wife was a top distributor as well). It was revealed by FDI that Denis Waitley never received a Masters degree, even though he claimed he did in SEC filings. As for his Ph.D., it was shown to be obtained from La Jolla University, a Diploma Mill. Not only that, but the university that now holds La Jolla's records (school doesn't exist anymore) claims that Denis Waitley is NOT in their records.

But Len makes the following claim in his first FDI rebuttal:

Minkow also exploits the fact that La Jolla University, where Dr. Waitley earned his Doctorate (Ph.D.) degree, is no longer in existence and, it appears, neither are their records from the time Dr. Waitley was a student. Since the Private Eye Minkow hired to snoop into Waitley’s past was unable to verify his Ph.D., this means, according to Minkow, that it must be suspect as well. Since the dead can no longer defend themselves, Minkow was surely comfortable in referring to “Mr.” Waitley’s degree as coming from a “now defunct and never-accredited diploma mill."

Ah, but the dead can sometimes defend themselves. Well, at least a dead University’s past president can. In a notarized affidavit63 supplied by Dr. Denis Muhilly, the president of La Jolla University from 1985 to 1991, the California State Department of Education issued La Jolla U. “Full Institutional Approval”. Dr. Muhilly alleges that the California SDE issued a statement asserting that such approval was comparable to “full accreditation”.64 He further verified that Dr. Waitley did indeed attend classes, produce a dissertation, and many people attended his graduation ceremony.


This was not disclosed by anyone else but Len. So where did Len get this information? From USANA.

Len also claims in his rebuttals that he contacts USANA for his information.

The best one was when he asked USANA for the video evidence of Mark Shurtleff endorsing USANA and their products. This really shows Len's ignorance. Barry Minkow contacted Mark Shurtleff's office and asked his he has endorsed USANA during a speech he gave. They claim that Mark Shurtleff would not endorse any company. A follow up call was made and Mark Shurleff's office told FDI that Mark Shurtleff would never endorse a company. The allegation was that Shurtleff gave a speech at USANA's convention after receiving thousands of dollars for a campaign contribution.

Then HERE COMES LEN!. Len misunderstood what the FDI report was stating. Len asked USANA for the video evidence of Mark Shurtleff's speech. Len edited out several minutes of the video in which Len claims Mark Shurtleff complains about his knee and consumes a USANA vitamin on stage. Len posted his edited version of the video on his website and claimed that Barry Minkow was wrong. Here's the funniest part. Len was claiming that Mark Shurtleff DID infact ENDORSE USANA! Len actually proved Barry correct and proved that Mark Shurtleff and his office aides LIED about Shurtleff's endorsement speech. Wasn't long after Len posted this video that USANA and Mark Shurtleff's office demand that the video be removed from the internet. Poof, the video was gone...

Fortunately, I had previously saved a copy of the video and when it was removed from Len's website, I posted it on Youtube. So now everyone can see Mark Shurtleff's illegal endorsement of USANA. Illegal? Yes! Attorney Generals are forbidden to endorse a private company like USANA. Len believes that I am wrong and the attorney general is allowed to make endorsements to private companies. Len simply does not understand the laws or even how to read them. Watch the video for yourself (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv-H096uZHU)!

I hope this is enough information for tonight. It is late and I'm sleep typing...

A Life Aloft
06-25-2010, 01:01 AM
Cripes, what was I just saying about MLMers and Politicians! That video is really shocking, damning and a disgrace. While watching it, I kept thinking how much money did Usana chump over to him to pimp for them?

I found my answer:

"Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff: More suspect campaign contributions
Posted by Tracy Coenen on November 26, 2008 · 6 Comments

This isn’t the first time (and won’t be the last time) that a contribution to Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff’s campaign fund is followed by questionable activity. The latest allegations of impropriety involve a computer consulting company called DigitalBridge.

On September 29, 2008, AG Shurtleff wrote a letter on his office’s letterhead to the National Association of Attorneys General, endorsing the services of DigitalBridge and providing the company’s contact information. This doesn’t sound like a big deal unless you consider that on September 18, 2008, DigitalBridge made a $10,000 contribution to Shurtleff’s campaign.

Shurtleff denies any impropriety, but it’s a little hard to believe him when one examines his past behavior related to campaign contributions which appear to be more properly termed bribes.

There’s the recent situation of a lucrative case awarded to law firm Siegfried & Jensen, which has contributed almost $60,000 to Shurtleff’s campaigns over the last eight years. There were no bids offered for the legal work, just proposals which Shurtleff reviewd.

Shurtleff has also received significant contributions from the payday lending industry, which he has supported.

There was the criminal fraud and racketerring case of Marc Sessions Jenson, for which Shurtleff is accused of bringing the charges as a personal favor to donor (and alleged victim) Ricke White. White’s wife gave Shurtleff’s campaign a total of $6,500 in the two years before the charges were brought.

Then there’s Shurtleff’s endorsement of multi-level marketing company Usana Health Sciences.

And of course, there’s the time Shurtleff wrote an untrue letter to Patrick Byrne (CEO of Overstock) about Sam Antar, who graciously provided free training to Shurtleff’s office. That letter followed a $5,000 campaign contribution by Overstock, and the letter was used in conjuction with an Overstock.com press release to smear Sam.

And there’s Shurtleff’s wholehearted support for the multi-level marketing industry, with MLM companies coincidentally contributing $231,000 to Shurtleff’s campaigns between 2003 and 2007, and another $65,500 in 2008 alone.


Shurtleff claims these are all coincidences. Have you ever seen a politicians with so many coincidences with similar characteristics? If it walks like a duck…"


It gets worse from here:

http://www.sequenceinc.com/fraudfiles/2007/11/17/utah-attorney-general-mark-shurtleff-endorses-company-committing-fraud/

Unsaved Trash
06-25-2010, 03:18 AM
Has someone invited Lenny to this site?

Maybe we should make him an admin here?

You know Fast, the first suggestion is OK. The second one may get you "a death threat from the Mafia."

fastmoney
06-25-2010, 06:45 AM
If I did get one. I would still be 6 threats away from Lenny.. I am just trying to catch up.

littleroundman
06-25-2010, 10:17 AM
If Clements goes out weally, weally late and is weally, weally quiet and is weally, weally lucky,

he might just hear the noise made by what little remains of his credibility disapeewing into the night.

USANAWatchDog
06-25-2010, 10:48 AM
Regarding Len Clements and the Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff fiasco, I wrote about it on my website when it all took place. http://www.mlmpyramid.com/Shurtleff_Endorses_USANA.html (http://www.mlmpyramid.com/Shurtleff_Endorses_USANA.html)

The information used to be on my old website geocities.com/terminatedramp, however, Geocities closed their free webhosting. So I had to move everything over to mlmpyramid.com. If you would rather I post the information from my website here, I can do that. I know when someone promotes their website, it can be distasteful. Sort of like when Len constantly refers to articles he wrote on his website when someone asks him a direct question about something on a forum. Instead of directly answering the question, you have to read through 40 pages of nonsense and then try to guess what his answer really is.

Lisa
06-25-2010, 11:48 AM
Wow, I always knew Mark Shurtleff was a complete dirtbag but I had no idea it was this bad. I'm going to forward all of this to my dad. He was elected the representative for his county for the most recent caucus in Utah and is definitely a well known figure in the community. Actually... I might just post this on my facebook since a large portion of my friends are in Utah.

MWave
06-28-2010, 02:00 AM
He was a Usana distributor.

No, I wasn't. I joined Usana right before their convention in early September.

MWave
06-28-2010, 02:16 AM
"Note: Nevada recently instituted a $200.00 a year Business License. Thus, Nevada requires (NRS 364A) all corporate entities to register for a Nevada Business License ($200.00 charge). Upon completing the form Nevada Secretary of State (http://sos.state.nv.us/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=1182), mail it to us with your $200.00. If you are a home based business, not having an office for your specific new business, projecting or making less than $26,600.00, the Business License is waived. However, still fill the form out and tell them you are under exemption 003; send no money".

Goodness, this is what Len expects to earn/what he actually does earn? You mean he lies, yet again? Say it isn't so!

All my consulting, expert witness activity, speaking and training, and downline overrides, are paid to me directly as an independent contractor. MarketWave provides mostly free information. The only sales that go through it are those for my two books and three CDs.

Having said that, it is interesting that the state displays an 003 exemption for my company. I need to call them in the morning and see how to get my $200 back.

Len

MWave
06-28-2010, 02:30 AM
I am the one to uncover and post on the internet the information about Len Clement's USANA distributorship deal. If you have any specific questions regarding Len's USANA relationship, I can provide lots of answers. Most of this was discussed on the Scam.com forum, which apparently is gone forever now.

Should any rational, objective person actually be reading this thread, please know that USANAWatchdog assisted Barry Minkow in his bash-n-cash short selling scheme against Usana (Minkow was paid at least $200,000 by short sellers to write a negative report on them, which did cause their stock top drop 15% in one day - Minkow made over $61,000 on his own put options on Usana). Usana was ultimately vindicated of all accusations against them (SEC investigation ended with no action taken, federal shareholder lawsuit dismissed on summary). USANAWatchdog is literally, clinically obsesses with destroying Usana and anyone who defends them - including me. Virtually everything he says about me is an outright lie, and what facts he gets right are grossly embellished. I've challenged him to address all of these issues on a live, recorded conference call and he always declines. I've tried debating him online for months in Usana's Yahoo financial board and elsewhere. He is utterly irrational in his agenda and cannot be reasoned with, no matter what evidence, logic or common sense you present to him.

Len

MWave
06-28-2010, 02:39 AM
Wow, I always knew Mark Shurtleff was a complete dirtbag but I had no idea it was this bad. I'm going to forward all of this to my dad. He was elected the representative for his county for the most recent caucus in Utah and is definitely a well known figure in the community. Actually... I might just post this on my facebook since a large portion of my friends are in Utah.

Yes, Lisa. Anonymous posters on internet message boards are really reliable sources of information. Especially one's with a pathologically obsessive agenda to single handedly destroy an entire company with 800+ employees that generates millions in annual state and federal tax revenue, and anyone who even indirectly supports them or dare tries to get in his way.

You should definitely bring this to the attention of your dad.

Len

fastmoney
06-28-2010, 07:48 AM
Having said that, it is interesting that the state displays an 003 exemption for my company. I need to call them in the morning and see how to get my $200 back.

Len

You probably need it to pay the rent on your crappy little house...


This Expert mlmer.. Well, no REAL expert I know, lives in a 1,322sq ft house, and drives a car worth $5k.. You really consider yourself an expert?

On a serious note.. Do you feel bad at all for what you did to Yoli?

Live&Learn
06-28-2010, 09:47 AM
If I did get one. I would still be 6 threats away from Lenny.. I am just trying to catch up.

Can we get a breakdown on those 7 alleged death threats. Could it be this way?

4 from MLMers who found out the Truth.

2 from people Len meets on message boards.

1 from a family member.

Just wondering.

USANAWatchDog
06-28-2010, 12:35 PM
Should any rational, objective person actually be reading this thread, please know that USANAWatchdog assisted Barry Minkow in his bash-n-cash short selling scheme against Usana (Minkow was paid at least $200,000 by short sellers to write a negative report on them, which did cause their stock top drop 15% in one day - Minkow made over $61,000 on his own put options on Usana).


I sent an email to Robert FitzPatrick in December of 2006 regarding USANA's 2005 distributor earnings report (http://www.mlmpyramid.com/2005USANA_NAearningsstatement.pdf), which was not publicly disclosed at the time. Because Fitzpatrick analyzed other MLM earnings report in his E-book, I thought I would send him the document for USANA. He replied back regarding the calculations he came up with, and I then responded with my analysis of USANA's earnings document. That second email that I sent ended up appearing on the original FDI USANA report at the end of addendum 2.

Because I emailed Robert Fitzpatrick, Len tries to imply that I took part of some short selling scheme. For starters, it is not illegal to short a stock. USANA was not able to prove the allegations in the report released by FDI to be false. USANA decided to sue FDI for some "Naked Short Selling" scheme. USANA was never able to prove any naked short selling was going on. Too bad for Len, I never shorted USANA's stock.



Usana was ultimately vindicated of all accusations against them (SEC investigation ended with no action taken, federal shareholder lawsuit dismissed on summary).

According to Len, the SEC also vindicated Barry Madoff when the SEC investigation ended with no action taken in 1992. Since 1999, the SEC repeatedly received requests to investigate Madoff's scheme, and the SEC ignored the issue. Remember, this is the same SEC that was recently caught watching PORN on your tax dollars instead of doing their job. The SEC did NOT vindicate USANA on "ALL" the allegations. USANA could not disprove any of the allegations. So what makes Len think that the SEC could disprove the allegations when USANA could not? And remember, the court required USANA pay Barry Minkow $142,510, and it was USANA who refused to provide the required discovery.



USANAWatchdog is literally, clinically obsesses with destroying Usana and anyone who defends them - including me. Virtually everything he says about me is an outright lie, and what facts he gets right are grossly embellished.

1) True or False? Len wrote several rebuttals against FDI while being paid a salary from ZENZA as a Vice President of Market Research for the United States. During this time, Len was not involved with ZENZA, and as a result was fired from ZENZA.

2) True or False? Len had lunch with James Bramble and TIm Rilley on April 4th. After lunch they took Len back to USANA's headquarters.

3) True or False? Len was greeted by USANA's employees in the lobby of the headquarters and awarded Len with a huge plaque for his defense of USANA against FDI.

4) True or False? Len discussed with Corporate members the work he did defending USANA.

5) True or False? Len discussed with USANA the idea and plans for a Matching Bonus Plan, which USANA slightly changed before implementing?

6) True or False? Len was given Distributor ID #: 47278 which is a very old position under Pete-Zdanis. This position was originally owned by Christine Cunningham, who left the position several years prior to Len Clements receiving the position.

7) True or False? The distributor Position Len Clements was given was a special case that no rule of USANA allowed. USANA's Transfer of Distributorship rule requires the original account owner to transfer their distributorship position to a new owner. However, since Christine Cunningham left years prior, it was infact USANA Corporate who gave Len the existing distributor position.

8) True or False? This existing position given to Len Clements has one of the legs maxed out while the other leg was virtually empty. New distributors joining USANA start with both legs empty. For Len to be maxing out one of his legs, he had about 150 distributors on that leg.

9) True or False? If Len joined USANA around the time he met with USANA on April 4, 2008, any of the people Len recruited would not have counted toward USANA's Matching Bonus Plan requirements which were implemented at USANA's annaul convention at the end of August.

10) True or False? Since Len joined right before the annual convention at the end of August, any distributors he recruited would apply toward his matching bonus requirement to reach Platinum Pacesetter. Unfortunately for Len, he did not recruit enough people to reach Platinum Pacesetter (100% matching bonus), but instead only made Pacesetter (50% matching bonus).

11) True or False? Len recruited his brother, John Fogg, and Brian Bier into USANA's Business Opportunity as distributors.

12) True or False? It was Len's decision to place John Fogg into USANA's Distributorship instead of a Preferred Customer.

13) True or False? John Fogg's ZENZA distributorship was terminated by ZENZA because Len Clements (Who originally recruited John Fogg and Briant Bier into ZENZA and paid a matching bonus for doing so, which makes Len a DISTRIBUTOR as well) recruited John Fogg into Len's downline as a DISTRIBUTOR. Len blames me for John Fogg's termination, but knows full and well who was truly responsible.

14) True or False? Len left USANA and joined Yoli as a founding distributor with ID# 1000007, which can be shown from this YOLI Distributor List. Len Clements recruited John Fogg and Brian Bier into Yoli.


Len claims that virtually everything I wrote about him are outright lies. He claims I embellish the truth. I'll let the reader decide.


I've challenged him to address all of these issues on a live, recorded conference call and he always declines. I've tried debating him online for months in Usana's Yahoo financial board and elsewhere. He is utterly irrational in his agenda and cannot be reasoned with, no matter what evidence, logic or common sense you present to him.

I will not participate in any live debate with Len Clements. So what? Written Debates offer far more credibility to the one writing the truth. People reading the debates can verify the claims. This cannot be done in an oral debate. I've responded to every single posting Len Clements has ever directed to me, but because my responses don't agree with his, he complains...

Lisa
06-28-2010, 12:39 PM
Yes, Lisa. Anonymous posters on internet message boards are really reliable sources of information. Especially one's with a pathologically obsessive agenda to single handedly destroy an entire company with 800+ employees that generates millions in annual state and federal tax revenue, and anyone who even indirectly supports them or dare tries to get in his way.

You should definitely bring this to the attention of your dad.

Len

There is a video of Utah's AG clearly endorsing a product, something that he is NOT allowed to do by state law in regards to his position. This isn't about being anti-MLM, nor it is about Usana's posts or anyone else's. For me, it's about the Attorney General of my home state not doing his job like he's supposed to. And it goes deeper than this, in Utah not only are more fraudulent MLM's allowed to grow than anywhere else in the US (as well as real estate scams), they allow payday loan places to pop up everywhere and put almost NO restrictions on them and more. Utah's Attorney General doesn't give a crap about protecting consumers, he just cares about $$ in his pockets.

Live&Learn
06-28-2010, 01:06 PM
There is a video of Utah's AG clearly endorsing a product, something that he is NOT allowed to do by state law in regards to his position. This isn't about being anti-MLM, nor it is about Usana's posts or anyone else's. For me, it's about the Attorney General of my home state not doing his job like he's supposed to. And it goes deeper than this, in Utah not only are more fraudulent MLM's allowed to grow than anywhere else in the US (as well as real estate scams), they allow payday loan places to pop up everywhere and put almost NO restrictions on them and more. Utah's Attorney General doesn't give a crap about protecting consumers, he just cares about $$ in his pockets.

That sounds very bad.

Utah - the home of Yoli. What a coincidence.

Lisa
06-28-2010, 01:18 PM
That sounds very bad.

Utah - the home of Yoli. What a coincidence.

Utah is the home of a LOT of juice MLM's (Xango sponsors Real Salt Lake - their soccer team). What I never understood is how all these juice companies say how they have the freshest acai berry or whatever fruit it is that they use in their drinks, but Utah is a desert. It's really hard to get much fruit to grow there at all. What I think they mean to say is the freshest freeze dried fruit, which isn't the same as fresh fruit.

When I lived in Utah it was not uncommon for someone to approach my husband or I with a "business opportunity" and try and use the LDS religion as a promotion tool. I also worked for a company that helped with real estate investors looking to do short sales. The company is no longer in business but it worked with another company based out of Provo that would sell people mentoring packages and all this other stuff to help them learn how to invest in real estate for thousands of dollars (some packages are over $10k). I learned that a lot of the information they were selling you could find for free and that their "mentors" were primarily BYU students and other young people who had never spent a day investing in real estate. The packages were a complete and total rip off and they scammed people out of thousands of dollars. They made getting refunds incredibly difficult and I can't even remember how many times I tried helping people who would contact our company trying to get their money back because they realized the whole program was a sham.

I also worked for an online payday loan company that is no longer in business because it was violating laws in other states in regards to the amount of interest that they were charing on the loans ($20 per $100 loaned). The guy who owned it also STILL owns 3 payday loan places with the same interest rates that other state Attorney General's have found to be too high and sued over.

Doc Bunkum
06-28-2010, 01:22 PM
... Having said that, it is interesting that the state displays an 003 exemption for my company. I need to call them in the morning and see how to get my $200 back.

Len

If you get your $200 back, maybe you can apply it to your MENSA membership that I'm led to believe is in arrears.

On your website you claim: Member - Mensa Society (155 IQ)

I don't know how to put this politely other than to say you're lying.

If you owe the folks at MENSA money because you haven't paid your dues, then no, you're not a member.

Emet
06-28-2010, 01:27 PM
That sounds very bad.

Utah - the home of Yoli. What a coincidence.

MLMs have a home in Utah (http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/Utah_hotbed.htm).

Since the video has been posted and commented on, Shurtleff was reelected in 2008 and it is now 2010.

Don't get me wrong, I am anti-MLM and anti-ethical violations for politicians. It appears he is running for the US Senate in 2010.

Anyone know what his chances are?

Lisa
06-28-2010, 01:33 PM
MLMs have a home in Utah (http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/Utah_hotbed.htm).

Since the video has been posted and commented on, Shurtleff was reelected in 2008 and it is now 2010.

Don't get me wrong, I am anti-MLM and anti-ethical violations for politicians. It appears he is running for the US Senate in 2010.

Anyone know what his chances are?

No, it's Mike Lee. It was between Mike Lee and Tim Bridgewater. Since Lee will be the Republican nominee it's pretty much guaranteed he'll win.

Emet
06-28-2010, 01:58 PM
No, it's Mike Lee. It was between Mike Lee and Tim Bridgewater. Since Lee will be the Republican nominee it's pretty much guaranteed he'll win.

Thanks, Lisa. I had seen his page about running for Senate, and missed that he had suspended his campaign. I don't follow Utah politics that closely.

According to his Wikipedia page, he was the first Utah AG to win reelection for a third term. So can/will he run again when his term expires? Is he popular?

Lisa
06-28-2010, 02:09 PM
Thanks, Lisa. I had seen his page about running for Senate, and missed that he had suspended his campaign. I don't follow Utah politics that closely.

According to his Wikipedia page, he was the first Utah AG to win reelection for a third term. So can/will he run again when his term expires? Is he popular?

It depends. A lot of people in Utah right now are very anti-incumbent, and as long as this sentiment is still around in 2012 then I think there's a chance he might lose. However, if he goes unchallenged again as the primary Republican in 2012 then I highly doubt he'll lose. He ran unchallenged in both 2004 and 2008, and generally speaking as long as you have a little (R) next to your name in Utah it pretty much guarantees you'll win. To give you a sample of the sentiment of politics in Utah, in high school the guy who was running as the Republican representative to represent our area in the state Senate visited my debate class. He told us to always vote along party lines and to always vote Republican. The guy gave us ZERO explanation of why we should do that, though, and those of us who participated in the more political aspects of debate just laughed at him. I think one of my classmates told him he was an idiot. However, a lot of people in Utah do simply vote along party lines. Salt Lake County is really the only place where a Democrat has much of a chance at a political career, the rest of the state is SUPER conservative.

MWave
06-28-2010, 02:47 PM
There is a video of Utah's AG clearly endorsing a product, something that he is NOT allowed to do by state law in regards to his position. This isn't about being anti-MLM, nor it is about Usana's posts or anyone else's. For me, it's about the Attorney General of my home state not doing his job like he's supposed to. And it goes deeper than this, in Utah not only are more fraudulent MLM's allowed to grow than anywhere else in the US (as well as real estate scams), they allow payday loan places to pop up everywhere and put almost NO restrictions on them and more. Utah's Attorney General doesn't give a crap about protecting consumers, he just cares about $$ in his pockets.

You're wrong. The AG of Utah is absolutely allowed to speak on behalf of Utah companies and make positive comments about them from the stage. Do you know how I know this? Because in the comment section under the YouTube video of Mr. Shurtleff's speech at the Usana convention USANAWatchdog inadvertently provided the proof! He quoted the entire statute that he though showed evidence that Shurtleff was wrong, but instead of cherry picking only the sections that support his case out of context (which he's a master at, and will probably now do here) he posted the section that he thought made his case, but included the larger, more pertinent section that completely obliterated it.

But please, do bring this three year old video that has been thoroughly discussed on numerous boards and is now ancient news to your dad. I'm sure he enjoys a good laugh.

Len

MWave
06-28-2010, 02:49 PM
Utah is the home of a LOT of juice MLM's (Xango sponsors Real Salt Lake - their soccer team). What I never understood is how all these juice companies say how they have the freshest acai berry or whatever fruit it is that they use in their drinks, but Utah is a desert. It's really hard to get much fruit to grow there at all. What I think they mean to say is the freshest freeze dried fruit, which isn't the same as fresh fruit.

When I lived in Utah it was not uncommon for someone to approach my husband or I with a "business opportunity" and try and use the LDS religion as a promotion tool. I also worked for a company that helped with real estate investors looking to do short sales. The company is no longer in business but it worked with another company based out of Provo that would sell people mentoring packages and all this other stuff to help them learn how to invest in real estate for thousands of dollars (some packages are over $10k). I learned that a lot of the information they were selling you could find for free and that their "mentors" were primarily BYU students and other young people who had never spent a day investing in real estate. The packages were a complete and total rip off and they scammed people out of thousands of dollars. They made getting refunds incredibly difficult and I can't even remember how many times I tried helping people who would contact our company trying to get their money back because they realized the whole program was a sham.

I also worked for an online payday loan company that is no longer in business because it was violating laws in other states in regards to the amount of interest that they were charing on the loans ($20 per $100 loaned). The guy who owned it also STILL owns 3 payday loan places with the same interest rates that other state Attorney General's have found to be too high and sued over.

This is funny. You can't even keep a smear Len thread on topic :-)

Len

Soapboxmom
06-28-2010, 02:58 PM
Well, Lenny, I assume you are going to continue our lively discussion of USANA's legal vindications as you dropped in here. I am still waiting for one. Barry Minkow had all the libel and slander type charges decided in his favor by the judge and was awarded all his 146 grand in attorney fees. The only thing not decided in his favor were the stock manipulation charges which were then settled out of court. Next we have China not taking any action, the SEC here not taking any action and a stock suit that had pleadings that the judge said did not meet to new higher standard for pleadings. So, where are those vindications?

Sopaboxmom

MWave
06-28-2010, 03:07 PM
I sent an email to Robert FitzPatrick in December of 2006 regarding USANA's 2005 distributor earnings report (http://www.mlmpyramid.com/2005USANA_NAearningsstatement.pdf), which was not publicly disclosed at the time. Because Fitzpatrick analyzed other MLM earnings report in his E-book, I thought I would send him the document for USANA. He replied back regarding the calculations he came up with, and I then responded with my analysis of USANA's earnings document. That second email that I sent ended up appearing on the original FDI USANA report at the end of addendum 2.

Because I emailed Robert Fitzpatrick, Len tries to imply that I took part of some short selling scheme. For starters, it is not illegal to short a stock. USANA was not able to prove the allegations in the report released by FDI to be false. USANA decided to sue FDI for some "Naked Short Selling" scheme. USANA was never able to prove any naked short selling was going on. Too bad for Len, I never shorted USANA's stock.

According to Len, the SEC also vindicated Barry Madoff when the SEC investigation ended with no action taken in 1992. Since 1999, the SEC repeatedly received requests to investigate Madoff's scheme, and the SEC ignored the issue. Remember, this is the same SEC that was recently caught watching PORN on your tax dollars instead of doing their job. The SEC did NOT vindicate USANA on "ALL" the allegations. USANA could not disprove any of the allegations. So what makes Len think that the SEC could disprove the allegations when USANA could not? And remember, the court required USANA pay Barry Minkow $142,510, and it was USANA who refused to provide the required discovery.

1) True or False? Len wrote several rebuttals against FDI while being paid a salary from ZENZA as a Vice President of Market Research for the United States. During this time, Len was not involved with ZENZA, and as a result was fired from ZENZA.

2) True or False? Len had lunch with James Bramble and TIm Rilley on April 4th. After lunch they took Len back to USANA's headquarters.

3) True or False? Len was greeted by USANA's employees in the lobby of the headquarters and awarded Len with a huge plaque for his defense of USANA against FDI.

4) True or False? Len discussed with Corporate members the work he did defending USANA.

5) True or False? Len discussed with USANA the idea and plans for a Matching Bonus Plan, which USANA slightly changed before implementing?

6) True or False? Len was given Distributor ID #: 47278 which is a very old position under Pete-Zdanis. This position was originally owned by Christine Cunningham, who left the position several years prior to Len Clements receiving the position.

7) True or False? The distributor Position Len Clements was given was a special case that no rule of USANA allowed. USANA's Transfer of Distributorship rule requires the original account owner to transfer their distributorship position to a new owner. However, since Christine Cunningham left years prior, it was infact USANA Corporate who gave Len the existing distributor position.

8) True or False? This existing position given to Len Clements has one of the legs maxed out while the other leg was virtually empty. New distributors joining USANA start with both legs empty. For Len to be maxing out one of his legs, he had about 150 distributors on that leg.

9) True or False? If Len joined USANA around the time he met with USANA on April 4, 2008, any of the people Len recruited would not have counted toward USANA's Matching Bonus Plan requirements which were implemented at USANA's annaul convention at the end of August.

10) True or False? Since Len joined right before the annual convention at the end of August, any distributors he recruited would apply toward his matching bonus requirement to reach Platinum Pacesetter. Unfortunately for Len, he did not recruit enough people to reach Platinum Pacesetter (100% matching bonus), but instead only made Pacesetter (50% matching bonus).

11) True or False? Len recruited his brother, John Fogg, and Brian Bier into USANA's Business Opportunity as distributors.

12) True or False? It was Len's decision to place John Fogg into USANA's Distributorship instead of a Preferred Customer.

13) True or False? John Fogg's ZENZA distributorship was terminated by ZENZA because Len Clements (Who originally recruited John Fogg and Briant Bier into ZENZA and paid a matching bonus for doing so, which makes Len a DISTRIBUTOR as well) recruited John Fogg into Len's downline as a DISTRIBUTOR. Len blames me for John Fogg's termination, but knows full and well who was truly responsible.

14) True or False? Len left USANA and joined Yoli as a founding distributor with ID# 1000007, which can be shown from this YOLI Distributor List. Len Clements recruited John Fogg and Brian Bier into Yoli.

Len claims that virtually everything I wrote about him are outright lies. He claims I embellish the truth. I'll let the reader decide.

I will not participate in any live debate with Len Clements. So what? Written Debates offer far more credibility to the one writing the truth. People reading the debates can verify the claims. This cannot be done in an oral debate. I've responded to every single posting Len Clements has ever directed to me, but because my responses don't agree with his, he complains...

As is so common, you're rebuttal just completely proved my point. Every single thing on this list is either meaningless (who cares if #14 is true or false?), gross embellishments, or outright lies that I've either completely disproved, or you've made up out of thin air and can't offer the slightest shred of proof to support.

You know all of this because we've went around and around on all these things, some of them for years. Yet, when Heather gives you yet another new forum to post all this garbage, here you are.

Steve (you know we all know - all dozen of us on this board - that you're name is Steve, right?), I understand that you believe you are not a good public speaker, which is your go-to excuse for not discussing all of these issues on a live call. I would think that with the truth on your side, and with all the evidence you would have to support your claims, this would more than compensate for your poor public speaking abilities, but who knows... maybe you're a really, really horrible public speaker. Fair enough. So why don't you go find a partner, like an anti-MLM/anti-Len litigator or a radio host (both of which regularly post on either Scam.com and/or Quatloos), or anyone who does have a good speaking ability to team up with you. Show them all your evidence, and give them all your questions, and let them debate them with me. You can just hide off stage and whisper all your intel to the speaker. Why won't you even agree to that arrangement?

I'm sure it's not because you're completely full of crap, and you know it.

Len

MWave
06-28-2010, 03:20 PM
Well, Lenny, I assume you are going to continue our lively discussion of USANA's legal vindications as you dropped in here. I am still waiting for one. Barry Minkow had all the libel and slander type charges decided in his favor by the judge and was awarded all his 146 grand in attorney fees. The only thing not decided in his favor were the stock manipulation charges which were then settled out of court. Next we have China not taking any action, the SEC here not taking any action and a stock suit that had pleadings that the judge said did not meet to new higher standard for pleadings. So, where are those vindications?

Sopaboxmom

I gave them to you, and you just recited them. But Heather, you are not a rational person who can be reasoned with.

In your mind the SEC can receive all of Minkow's allegations, start an "informal inquiry" into Usana, which requires only the very slightest of suspicion of wrong doing to be raised to the level of a "formal investigation", and after ten months the SEC drops the inquiry and takes no action of any kind - and that, at least to you, is not vindication.

Three class action lawsuits are filed against Usana based entirely, often verbatum, on the charges made in Minkow's report. A derivative suit, a shareholder suit, and a distributor suit. The derivative and distributor suits are dropped by the plaintiff, and the shareholder suit is dismissed on summary, meaning there was so little evidence to support the allegations against Usana that the federal judge believed it would stand no reasonable chance of ever prevailing. In fact, in the judges ruling he stated the charges were not even "plausible". Yet, in your mind, this is not vindication.

Now, here's where you completely evade everything I just said by citing the SLAPP suit ruling against Usana - which is kind of like making a case that the Indians won the war against the US Army by citing Custer's Last Stand.

Usana was OVERWHELMINGLY vindicated!

Len

Soapboxmom
06-28-2010, 03:22 PM
Lenny,

We are going to stick to written and researched responses. If you are as brilliant as you would have folks believe you should be able to hold your own here. I assume you will be embedding more pertinent court papers about those legal vindications of USANA you have been braying about for over a year.

Good luck!

Soapboxmom

Emet
06-28-2010, 03:40 PM
Usana was OVERWHELMINGLY vindicated!
Len

Nope.

Usana Health Sciences loses big in court : Sequence Inc. Fraud Files Blog (http://www.sequence-inc.com/fraudfiles/2008/03/04/usana-health-sciences-loses-big-in-court/)

Usana Health Sciences ordered to pay Barry Minkow’s legal fees : Sequence Inc. Fraud Files Blog (http://www.sequenceinc.com/fraudfiles/2008/05/07/usana-health-sciences-ordered-to-pay-barry-minkows-legal-fees/)

The dismissal of the Usana Health Sciences case against Fraud Discovery Institute : Sequence Inc. Fraud Files Blog (http://www.sequenceinc.com/fraudfiles/2008/07/29/the-dismissal-of-the-usana-health-sciences-case-against-fraud-discovery-institute/)

(predidictable response: Coenen and Minkow are both blah, blah, blah...)

MWave
06-28-2010, 03:54 PM
Nope.

Usana Health Sciences loses big in court : Sequence Inc. Fraud Files Blog (http://www.sequence-inc.com/fraudfiles/2008/03/04/usana-health-sciences-loses-big-in-court/)

Usana Health Sciences ordered to pay Barry Minkow’s legal fees : Sequence Inc. Fraud Files Blog (http://www.sequenceinc.com/fraudfiles/2008/05/07/usana-health-sciences-ordered-to-pay-barry-minkows-legal-fees/)

The dismissal of the Usana Health Sciences case against Fraud Discovery Institute : Sequence Inc. Fraud Files Blog (http://www.sequenceinc.com/fraudfiles/2008/07/29/the-dismissal-of-the-usana-health-sciences-case-against-fraud-discovery-institute/)

(predidictable response: Coenen and Minkow are both blah, blah, blah...)


You just did EXACTLY what I predicted Heather would do! Every one of these links relate to the SLAPP decision, not any of the vindications I just described.

Come on, people. I've got work to do today. Stop making this so easy!

Len

USANAWatchDog
06-28-2010, 04:03 PM
As is so common, you're rebuttal just completely proved my point. Every single thing on this list is either meaningless (who cares if #14 is true or false?), gross embellishments, or outright lies that I've either completely disproved, or you've made up out of thin air and can't offer the slightest shred of proof to support.

You know all of this because we've went around and around on all these things, some of them for years. Yet, when Heather gives you yet another new forum to post all this garbage, here you are.

Steve (you know we all know - all dozen of us on this board - that you're name is Steve, right?), I understand that you believe you are not a good public speaker, which is your go-to excuse for not discussing all of these issues on a live call. I would think that with the truth on your side, and with all the evidence you would have to support your claims, this would more than compensate for your poor public speaking abilities, but who knows... maybe you're a really, really horrible public speaker. Fair enough. So why don't you go find a partner, like an anti-MLM/anti-Len litigator or a radio host (both of which regularly post on either Scam.com and/or Quatloos), or anyone who does have a good speaking ability to team up with you. Show them all your evidence, and give them all your questions, and let them debate them with me. You can just hide off stage and whisper all your intel to the speaker. Why won't you even agree to that arrangement?

I'm sure it's not because you're completely full of crap, and you know it.

Len


I responded to everything you previously wrote. Because you don't like my response, you give up and refuse to debate online in a written manner. You are hell bent on a live oral debate, which doesn't require the truth to prevail. Everyone seems knows that about oral debates. Why don't you? Oral debates are all about who the better debater is, not who is telling the truth.

So why not go through each of the True/False statements and state which you believe are "lies". You have called me a liar at least 30 times, but have not proven a single thing.

Emet
06-28-2010, 04:13 PM
Blah, blah, blah.
Len

Same old argument, over and over and over and over:

Quatloos! • View topic - Fraud Discovery Institute's Analysis of USANA (http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=80&start=60#p50523)

Live&Learn
06-28-2010, 04:13 PM
I responded to everything you previously wrote. Because you don't like my response, you give up and refuse to debate online in a written manner. You are hell bent on a live oral debate, which doesn't require the truth to prevail. Everyone seems knows that about oral debates. Why don't you? Oral debates are all about who the better debater is, not who is telling the truth.

So why not go through each of the True/False statements and state which you believe are "lies". You have called me a liar at least 30 times, but have not proven a single thing.

Don't waste your time with Len. Here's a great post by Foolmewunz over at JREF. Case closed.

"Amega Wand" Chrystal/Mineral healing scam - Page 23 - JREF Forum (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=167749&page=23)

So - the old "Debate Me" canard, eh Len? We've had Truthers who thought this was a good idea, (most of them can be located now in Foster's Home For Imaginary Debaters) and they all seemed to have one thing in common with each other (and apparently you); they are Slicky Boys. Fast-talking, glib, experienced public speakers, etc... It doesn't matter whether they have any actual facts. What use are facts in a debate where three out of your five points are all based on "Isn't Len Trustworthy? Isn't Len Swell. Why Don't We All Work Harder to be More Like Len?" Those are all opinion pieces, Len. What are we gonna do? Stand there and repeatedly say, "Are not!"?

And, by the way, I'm a trainer and very adequate public speaker. And I'm a fast-talking New York Jewboy, so you set up the venue. Topic: Just How Successful and Swell Is Len, Anyway?

I will, of course, require full disclosure - including Powers of Attorney so that I can contact your bank and your accountant and financial advisor plus, naturally, all your teachers, doctors, co-workers, etc... throughout your entire life. I mean.... Swelldom is a lifelong thing, right? You don't just attain swellness overnight. I should know, I took the Michael J. Fox Swelliness Awareness course to get this swell, so I'm definitely an authority on the subject. Why I've been asked to testify in several of the better known Swellitude investigations in Malaysia and Bhutan.

I mean, why clutter the discussions with all that crap about MLM? There are books written on the subject, dozens of books, pro-and-con. What are you going to settle in a six hour debate that hasn't been covered in the hundred thousand pages that have been written on the subject? But a debate on your swellness (which seems to be your main concern) should be well worth it.




The Venerable Get A Life Fallacy. Some of us are actually retired, Len. Some of us aren't. Some of us are students. Yet again, some of us are poor, but use the internet as a lifeline. Some of us are just plain frakkin' rich from never having had our bank accounts sucked dry by some slick outta town gambler or MLM profiteer. And some of us have jobs where we can use the internet at work and don't have to stop off at Ray's Internet Cafe and Frog Gigging Center on Route 11.
Oh, and I'd match my life - quantity and quality - to yours any day. Drop in next time you're in Hong Kong. Or have your girl call my girl. We'll do lunch next time I'm on the coast, babe.

Unsaved Trash
06-30-2010, 12:54 PM
Len - I'm still wondering how many people have bought your programs and other assorted books, CDs, etc. that you hawk on your site. Can you provide any documentation that they prospered from the purchase(s)? I know one person that bought your stuff and isn't exactly living even middle class. Any testimonies?

When was the most recent time you were hired for your expert "court certified witness" capabilities?

How many people have you recruited into Yoli that made a purchase in the past month?

And finally, are you currently looking into another MLM opportunity to move into?

Please take note that this is not just another "bash Len" post. It's asking for business information where you're involved, things which you promote on your website.

Akhenaten
07-01-2010, 12:24 PM
You just did EXACTLY what I predicted Heather would do! Every one of these links relate to the SLAPP decision, not any of the vindications I just described.

Come on, people. I've got work to do today. Stop making this so easy!

Len





Fancy a challenge, do ya Lenny?

How about the JREF Forum? That certainly didn't seem too easy last time.

Wand up, Mensa Man, and let's boogie. BYO Magic Stick™.

Unsaved Trash
07-01-2010, 12:35 PM
Len - I'm still waiting to see some testimonies of how your mentoring, advice, recommendations, CDs, books, etc. have worked out for the suckers, ah, I mean people that purchased this stuff. Anything?

Lightbulb
07-01-2010, 02:01 PM
As this thread is about Len, I would like to ask:

Is it true that he was just banned from scam dot com?

Wasn't he an admin there?

fastmoney
07-01-2010, 02:06 PM
Yes and Yes....

Live&Learn
07-01-2010, 02:34 PM
Fancy a challenge, do ya Lenny?

How about the JREF Forum? That certainly didn't seem too easy last time.

Wand up, Mensa Man, and let's boogie. BYO Magic Stick™.

Welcome!

P.S. Hey Lenny, You can even bring your choice of Jungle Juice or Yoli BLAST Caps. :RpS_ohmy:

Soapboxmom
12-18-2010, 10:24 PM
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admin on The Four Greatest Fears of Starting Your Own Business – Len Clements (http://the-new-american-dream.com/2010/11/19/the-four-greatest-fears-of-starting-your-own-business-len-clements/#comment-417)

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The Four Greatest Fears of Starting Your Own Business – Len Clements (http://the-new-american-dream.com/2010/11/19/the-four-greatest-fears-of-starting-your-own-business-len-clements/)

http://the-new-american-dream.com/wp-content/themes/new_american_dream/images/PostDateIcon.png November 19th, 2010 | http://the-new-american-dream.com/wp-content/themes/new_american_dream/images/PostAuthorIcon.png Author: admin (http://the-new-american-dream.com/2010/11/19/the-four-greatest-fears-of-starting-your-own-business-len-clements/#)
The Four Greatest Fears of Starting Your Own Business
http://the-new-american-dream.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/clements.jpg (http://the-new-american-dream.com/2010/11/19/the-four-greatest-fears-of-starting-your-own-business-len-clements/clements/)
… and how network marketing
blows them all away with the force
of a 20-megaton thermal nuclear
explosion! I dare you to honestly
and openly look at
network marketing and not be
impressed and intrigued!

It takes too much money.
People don’t have tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of dollars to invest in a business (and they don’t know anyone else who did).
It takes too much time.
People didn’t want to work eighty hours a week for the first year or two to get their business going.
There’s too much risk.
Over 56 percent of all businesses fail in the first two years, and they’d have to quit their job, so there was no safety net.
They don’t know how.
Most people have never taken any business courses. They have no business experience. They don’t know anything about taxes, accounting, marketing, and the myriad of other skills a good entrepreneur must possess.
Imagine becoming financially independent in one to three years in Network Marketing…

Without having to spend thousands of dollars each month…
Without having to work long hours seven days a week…
Without even having to quit your job during the development stage and…
Without having to get a business degree or hire someone who has one…
If you are considering starting your own business, or you want to, but have always been apprehensive, open your own mind to Network Marketing.

Think Network Marketing is too good to be true? I challenge you: Find the catch!
If you’ve never pursued a Network Marketing venture, it must be for one of two reasons: You just didn’t know about it, or you have a prejudice against it.
And that’s exactly what it is, a prejudice. You have prejudged this business based on what someone else has told you about it (usually someone who has failed at it or who has also never been involved themselves).
In other words, you’ve chosen to adopt someone else’s opinion of this business. Don’t let other people do your thinking for you. Make your own decision based on your own evaluation.
Check this business out. Really, do your due diligence. And when you are done, I would defy anyone, even the most devout skeptic, to not experience a significant, positive paradigm shift.
I dare you to honestly and openly look at Network Marketing and not be impressed and intrigued!
- Len Clements, Court Certified Network Marketing Expert
from the book It’s Time… For Network Marketing
You can get a downloadable PDF of Len’s complete article (along with all 52 essays) from the Free Library here: It’s Time… For Network Marketing (http://the-new-american-dream.com/free-library/its-time-for-network-marketing-the-52-essays/)

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3 Responses to “The Four Greatest Fears of Starting Your Own Business – Len Clements”


http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/68ba56862bc42a5714084870424cd54b?s=48&d=%3Cpath_to_url%3E&r=G Arnold Hella (http://facebook.com/arnold.hella) says:


November 19, 2010 at 2:46 pm (http://the-new-american-dream.com/2010/11/19/the-four-greatest-fears-of-starting-your-own-business-len-clements/#comment-362)
Len nailed it. When I was first introduced to network marketing I was very skeptical. However, I was “looking” and I was open. Having come from a backround in investments doing ones due diligence was not only necessary but in some cases almost mandatory. So I did my homework and I did more homework….and I tried some products and I got excited. It’s not always an easy business but it is a simple business and I’ve never regretted it.
Reply (http://the-new-american-dream.com/2010/11/19/the-four-greatest-fears-of-starting-your-own-business-len-clements/?replytocom=362#respond)



http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/27ad79c00849c93ddf25004f0fc11775?s=48&d=%3Cpath_to_url%3E&r=G admin says:


November 24, 2010 at 4:22 pm (http://the-new-american-dream.com/2010/11/19/the-four-greatest-fears-of-starting-your-own-business-len-clements/#comment-417)
Glad you approved and agreed Arnold. And, with your permission, we’d like to make a post/quote out of your comment.
Thanks Arnold.
We appreciate you.
The NEW American Dream Team
Reply (http://the-new-american-dream.com/2010/11/19/the-four-greatest-fears-of-starting-your-own-business-len-clements/?replytocom=417#respond)



http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/68ba56862bc42a5714084870424cd54b?s=48&d=%3Cpath_to_url%3E&r=G Arnold Hella (http://facebook.com/arnold.hella) says:


November 28, 2010 at 11:29 am (http://the-new-american-dream.com/2010/11/19/the-four-greatest-fears-of-starting-your-own-business-len-clements/#comment-461)
No problem
Reply (http://the-new-american-dream.com/2010/11/19/the-four-greatest-fears-of-starting-your-own-business-len-clements/?replytocom=461#respond)

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Len Clements saves the planet with network marketing. Look at that stunning testimonial from his one flunky! Lenny is a true hero and consumate professional! :RpS_flapper:

I am still laughing at this one!:

NOTICE
THIS SITE WAS THE ORIGINAL VERSION OF THE FREESTYLES TEAM WEBSITE BEFORE
A NEWER (http://www.freestylesteam.com/Newsite/index.asp) SITE WAS DEVELOPED. BOTH OF THESE SITES HAVE BEEN INACTIVE AND
NOT MAINTAINED FOR ALMOST A YEAR NOW SINCE YOLI'S INTRODUCTION OF
THE GOYOLI.COM (http://www.len.goyoli.com/) DISTRIBUTOR WEBSITE PLATFORM.
THE ONLY REASON I'M LEAVING THIS SITE UP IS BECAUSE A SMALL BUT OBSESSIVE
CLIQUE OF ANONYMOUS INTERNET TROLLS, WHO CLAIMED AFTER YOLI'S LAUNCH IN
NOVEMBER OF 2009 THAT WE "WOULDN'R LAST 6 MONTHS", HAVE EXPLOITED THIS SITE'S
LACK OF DEVELOPMENT IN A DESPERATE ATTEMPT TO SUGGEST I AM NO LONGER ACTIVE
IN YOLI DUE TO ITS INEVITABLE DEMISE.
THEY ARE WRONG.
I AM STILL ACTIVE IN YOLI AND 100% COMMITTED TO IT.
FURTHERMORE, YOLI JUST CELEBRATED ITS ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY ON 11/9/10,
AND EXPERIENCED A 21% REVENUE INCREASE OVER THE PREVIOUS MONTH.

LEN CLEMENTS
LAS VEGAS, NV
800-203-0363

http://www.freestylesteam.com/images/lenclements.jpg

Soapboxmom

Whip
12-18-2010, 10:55 PM
I started my business with very little money and have taken no business courses.....just learned from being around the right people and observing. I bet I'm making way more than the saps they suck in.

littleroundman
12-18-2010, 11:49 PM
105

Hmmn,

if I was weally, weally kwool, I'd say there's a perfect opportunity for an "add a caption" competition here, involving comparisons between digit size and the size of various appendages.



But, even I couldn't be THAT cruel, so I'll remain silent.

USANAWatchDog
03-16-2011, 07:58 PM
Len Clements acts as an MLM consultant and supposed MLM Legal Expert. Recently, Len has been defending the fact USANA has a lot of Chinese Nationals from mainland China signing up as distributors in Hong Kong. Makes the following claim on the Yahoo forum:


Chinese residents establishing and operating MLM businesses in Hong Kong is a perfectly open and legal practice. You know this but refuse to acknowledge it because it would prove your case against Usana is a deliberate lie.

Steve, are you so desperate now that you have to unbury old, long lost arguments from three years ago?

Usana won. You lost. - Yahoo! Message Boards - USANA Health Sciences Inc. Comm - Usana China Threat to Share Owner (http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_U/threadview?m=tm&bn=19109&tid=113778&mid=113781&tof=1&rt=2&frt=2&off=1)

Now I want to post my answer to this here because my responses have been known to be removed from the Yahoo forum when it proves Len to not know what he is talking about.

Here is my response:

From Zhao04: Nov 30, 2005
1) http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks... (http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_U/threadview?m=tm&bn=19109&tid=14740&mid=14784&tof=-1&rt=2&frt=2&off=1&p=dyfR9E_AWsZ7ZJ5rm73yNeI25gR7T2DX.dVz.KR_DZ6jq3xC JZnJxbg-)
QUOTE
Usana cut 1400 Chinese distributors who went to Hong Kong to join. From this event you can feel how hot Chinese market is. Some Chinese already start to build their team, mostly from Taiwan. But Usana is firm. If it receive any complant about someone building his team in china, Usana will kill him. Because Chinese government sets the law to prohimit multilevel direct sale all big companies there need to find a way to adjust their system.
END QUOTE


From G_star12: Nov 30, 2005
2) http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks... (http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_U/threadview?m=tm&bn=19109&tid=14740&mid=14786&tof=-1&rt=2&frt=2&off=1&p=dyfR9E_AWsZ7ZJ5rm73yNeI25gR7T2DX.dVz.KR_DZ6jq3xC JZnJxbg-)
QUOTE
What do you mean 1400 Distributors "were cut"?
Were they terminated by Usana as a résult?
This is very interesting, can you please be more specific on that.
Thanks
END QUOTE


From Zhao04: Dec 1, 2005
3) http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks... (http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_U/threadview?m=tm&bn=19109&tid=14740&mid=14793&tof=-1&rt=2&frt=2&off=1&p=dyfR9E_AWsZ7ZJ5rm73yNeI25gR7T2DX.dVz.KR_DZ6jq3xC JZnJxbg-)
QUOTE
yes. usana terminated 1400 chinese who went to hong kong to join.
END QUOTE


So Len consults for other MLM companies. Does Len advise these companies that have operations in Hong Kong to allow Chinese Nationals from mainland China join their MLM company through illegal means? China has banned all forms of MLM in their country. Len seems to think it is okay for Chinese Nationals to join MLMs as long as they open the account in Hong Kong. Again, this guy consults MLMs...

USANAWatchDog
03-16-2011, 08:02 PM
Also, to make the previous post make more sense. USANA now has 70,000 active associates in Hong Kong. That is 1 out of every 100 Hong Kong citizens. To put this into perspective, USANA has 51,000 active associates in the United States which is 1 out of every 6046 US citizens. Also, uncovered is an internal USANA document (http://www.sequenceinc.com/fraudfiles/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/usanacompliance100609.pdf) where they admit that a "LARGE SUM" of product ends up in mainland China.

Whip
03-16-2011, 08:44 PM
Well, you are talking about a true anonymous troll idiot that feels he must prove the Amega Wand to be a hoax. I guess if he doesn't, he'll be forced to believe that it works. Or perhaps his angle is blackmailing them into giving him some high position in the scam. He and his two other boyfriends are behind in starting their very special 'straw' mlm.

littleroundman
03-17-2011, 07:39 AM
Also, to make the previous post make more sense. USANA now has 70,000 active associates in Hong Kong. That is 1 out of every 100 Hong Kong citizens. To put this into perspective,

Are you sure those numbers are correct ???

If the figures are accurate, the "active associates" in Hong Kong really are in trouble WRT selling of product or they are all having to market into Mainland Asia.

1 in 100 "associates" only gives each "associate" 99 people to whom they can sell their cra......err......health product.

A Life Aloft
03-17-2011, 11:09 AM
There are just over 7 million citizens in Hong Kong. I have a question. How can anyone prove that all the distributors listed or registered from/in Hong Kong are actually citizens of Hong Kong? How many of these distributors are actually from mainland China or even from Taiwan?? I find it very hard to believe that you could walk up and down Harbor City or Pacific Place and meet hundreds of Usana reps. How would one actually know or get the true figures for active reps/distributors also? Aren't all MLMs and and any forms of multi level marketing still banned by the Chinese government? How are they getting around this? How many reps are they claiming are in Singapore? Also the populace are still very much into natural herbs, teas, various ingredients like fish oils, certain parts of various sea creatures, various algaes, roots, leaves, berries, fungal products and the like. I do know that a lot of Centrum is sold there, though. Do Usana product meet all of the requirements, labeling requirements, ingredient and other regulations to be sold there? (Chinese Medicine Ordinance)

A Life Aloft
03-17-2011, 11:42 AM
I have another question. Are the numbers of distributors counted as such just because they are buying the products for personal use/consumption and not selling it/them? Are those people in the mix of numbers as well as though selling the products? Is anyone who purchases the product(s) called a "distributor"?

Soapboxmom
03-17-2011, 01:20 PM
ChrisDoyle thinks that distributors that are buying for personal use are customers. He thinks their reason for buying determines their classification. Unfortunately for him the courts and even most pro-MLM attorneys count a customer as a purchaser who is not participating in the payplan.

Kevin Thompson, Len Clement's goofy MLM attorney friend, insists that customers are outside the payplan, but thinks a good compnay has 30% of its sales come (http://www.scribd.com/doc/17733330/Legitimate-MLM-or-Pyramid-Scheme-How-can-you-tell)from customers. That is laughable. The reps can't make money without the vast majority of purchasers being retail customers. That is why Harvard does not teach MLM courses. MLM is pure scam as no business in the real world marketplace can compare!

Soapboxmom

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06-01-2009, 10:24 AM
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Re: The History and Truth of Network Marketing
ChrisDoyle,

Here is some info on court cases discussing retail sales in MLM.

http://www.mlmconsultant.com/mlm_law.htm (http://www.mlmconsultant.com/mlm_law.htm)
Quote:

The U.S. FTC has been moving steadily toward measuring the amount of Sales to Distributors compared to the dollar amount generated by sales to end consumers (Customers that do not belong to the pay plan). If there aren’t enough Customers, the MLM Company is considered a Pyramid Scheme. Regulators have found that pure pyramid schemes don’t have any end consumer customers. The definition of a Customer is a person that only buys product or services and doesn’t belong to the compensation plan and has no expectation of making money. The FTC Consumer Affairs people said in public speeches (not written rules) that MLM – Network Marketing Companies need to have a minimum of 50% Customers (that do not belong to the pay plan) to prove they are not a pyramid scheme. ....

"CUSTOMERS" CASE #1

FTC BURNS BURN LOUNGE!

The money in Burn Lounge was coming from recruiting.... Not the 50% of income from Customers/Product Sales the FTC wants.....

CASE #2. In this case with Mall Ventures in 2004 the FTC took court action but did not shut the company down.

CASE #2 PARAGRAPH 9. “Retail Sales” means sales of products, services, or business ventures by defendants, their successors, assigns, agents, servants, employees, and those persons in active concert or participation with them to third-party end users. Retail Sales does not include sales made by a participant in a multi-level marketing program to other participants, recruits, or the participant’s own account....

"CUSTOMERS" CASE #3

The FTC and Federal Marshals walked into SkyBiz offices on 31 August 2001 and shut the company down. This is normal for the FTC since they don’t want to fight the legal power MLM and other types of companies have. They get a preliminary injunction in secret, walk in, and shut the company down.

This is from 2 Jan 2002 FINDINGS OF FACT AND CONCLUSIONS OF LAW AND ORDER FOR PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION REGARDING SKYBIZ INTERNATIONAL LTD. .For complete case see CD-ROM #1 FTC that comes with the law book. Please note the critical elements (causes for action) presented on pages 14 and 15 of the lawsuit in this case. The third paragraph is the newest refined and the biggest change in the Customer direction for the FTC in determining MLM vs. Pyramid Scheme. The height of humor (or despair) was when SkyBiz sent out this email looking for Customers a couple of days before the trial started. Have a laugh, or frown, Skybiz did not even know if they had customers that were end users! Read This:

aaa@attglobal.net (aaa@attglobal.net); Leslie Tumlin (*********'s buddy in Local Ad Link) ; Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 12:04 PM

Subject: Trial Preparation Friends of SkyBiz:



Urgent To All SkyBiz Members

We need the names and addresses of EVERY SATISFIED consumer that bought the SkyBiz products and have never sold the business opportunity. We also need the names and addresses of five VERY ZEALOUS Associates who are in the program, but haven't made a whole lot of money. Please keep in mind, we need consumers and associates who would not be reluctant about testifying in court and who presumably are in the United States (for travel purposes). If any of the potential witnesses you suggest are outside the U.S., please identify what country they're in. I need this information at your earliest convenience. Thank you.

Martin Allen Brown, General Counsel

SkyBiz

World Service Corporation

(Author Note) In this following paragraph, the FTC shows it’s push for “retail sales to customers who don’t belong to the pay plan.”

CASE #3 PARAGRAPH 15. A lawful multi-level marketing program is distinguishable from an illegal pyramid scheme in the sense that the "primary purpose" of the enterprise and its associated individuals is to sell or market an end-product with end-consumers and not to reward associated individuals for the recruitment of more marketers or “associates” See Gold Unlimited, 171 F.3d at 483-84 (suggesting that based on a statutory survey of state criminal laws against pyramid schemes, this is a difference). See also Ger-Ro-Mar, Inc. v. FTC, 518 F.2d 33. 36 (2d Cir. 1975) (explaining that the distributors profited by earning commissions from their own sales and those of their recruits); In re Amway Corp., 93 F.T.C. 618, 716 (1979) (sponsors do not make money from their recruits' efforts until a newly recruited distributor begins to make wholesale purchases from his sponsor and sales to consumers) ....

"CUSTOMERS" CASE #4

FTC Press Release: Consumers paid a registration fee to join the NexGen program, and most also purchased a “WebSuite” including the Internet Mall and related goods and services. A “Basic WebSuite”cost $185, including the registration fee, and a “Power Pack WebSuite” cost $555. NexGen allegedly claimed that “each activated business center has the potential to earn up to $60,000 per week.”

CASE #4 PARAGRAPH 24. NexGen also paid commissions to affiliates on purchases from Internet merchants that resulted from visits to the affiliates' malls. Similarly, affiliates earned commissions from purchases directed to third-party Internet merchants as a result of visits through the malls of their downline. The commissions NexGen paid on these purchases were relatively small compared to the commissions it paid on sales of websuites to new recruits....

"CUSTOMERS" CASE #5

CASE #5. In the “BigSmart” case, you can see that the FTC is refining its wording of end user and customer. This was a walk in and shut down operation by the FTC and Federal Marshals. You can see some outline of changing requirements:

CASE #5 Subparagraph C. “Prohibited marketing scheme,” means a pyramid sales scheme, Ponzi scheme, chain marketing scheme or other marketing plan or program characterized by the payment participants of money to the program in return for which they receive (1) the right to sell a product or service and (2) the right to receive in return for recruiting other participants into the program rewards which are unrelated to the sale of products or services to ultimate users. Rewards are “unrelated” to the sale of products or services to ultimate users if rewards are not based primarily on revenue from retail sales.

CASE #5 Subparagraph D. “Retail Sales” means sales of products, services, or business ventures by Defendant, his successors, assigns, agents, servants, employees, and those persons in active concert or participation with them to third-party end users. “Retail Sales” does not include sales made by participants in a multi-level marketing program to other participants, recruits, or to such a participant’s own account.

CASE #5 Subparagraph E. “Ultimate users” are purchasers of retail sales.......
"CUSTOMERS" CASE #6

On December 9, 1999, the FTC filed suit in U. S. District Court for the District of Maryland seeking a preliminary and permanent injunction and a legal asset freeze against Dallas-based 2Xtreme Performance International that was a Pyramid Scheme (bad one) disguised as an MLM – Network Marketing Company. The FTC legal complaint alleged that the defendants used Web sites, direct mail, infomercials, telemarketing and seminars to convince consumers they could make substantial income by investing in their multi-level marketing scheme, which marketed nutritional supplements, beauty, weight-loss and other products. Marketing materials represented that consumers could expect to earn enough MLM – Network Marketing income to retire in two years, while the pseudo MLM Company ripped them off for $10,000 - $30,000. We can see the shaping of precedent law in the following paragraph. The Final Settlement said:

CASE #6 Subparagraph F. “Prohibited marketing program” means any marketing program, Ponzi scheme, chain marketing scheme, or other marketing plan or program in which a person who participates makes a payment and receives the right, license or opportunity to derive income as a participant primarily from: (i) the recruitment of additional recruits by the participant, program promoter or others; (ii) non-retail sales made to or by such recruits or their recruits; or (iii) any other payments made by recruits. For purposes of this Final Order, a "prohibited marketing program" does not include a marketing plan or program in which the program promoter demonstrates to the defendant that it has instituted and enforced rules that have the actual effect of ensuring that the participants in the program derive income from the retail sale of goods or services to persons who are end-users of the goods or services and who are not participants in the program....

"CUSTOMERS" CASE #7

The FTC charged that income from the FutureNet multilevel marketing plan did not depend on sales of the Internet devices they were purportedly selling, but rather on the recruitment of new distributors -- the typical profile of an illegal pyramid....

FEDERAL MLM - TO PYRAMID CASE HISTORY JEWELWAY INTERNATIONAL

"CUSTOMERS" CASE #8

In a pyramid scheme there is almost no emphasis on making retail sales of products to persons who are not participants in the program. According to an FTC expert, earnings claims made in conjunction with promoting a pyramid scheme are false because pyramids inevitably collapse when no new participants can be recruited and approximately 90% (or possibly more) of the participants consequently lose their money..... CASE #8 PARAGRAPH 15. A lawful multi-level marketing program is distinguishable from an illegal pyramid scheme in the sense that the "primary purpose" of the enterprise and its associated individuals is to sell or market an end-product with end-consumers and not to reward associated individuals for the recruitment of more marketers or “associates”
Customers, customers, customers. Chris, legitimate companies have customers!

Soapboxmom

A Life Aloft
03-19-2011, 06:14 PM
Mom, this is something that has always bothered me about all MLMs and their reporting of any members and "customers", distributors, reps, affiliates, associates, or whatever they choose to call them, let alone their income claims. The waters are always murky. We won't even get into how they keep all the defunct/inactive members on their active counts to boost their hyping b.s. even further. I wish Usana would return to answer my questions.

A Life Aloft
03-19-2011, 10:54 PM
Just a thought......since the first annual ( that was what THEY called it) Yoli Convention was in Vegas in January 2010, what happened to this year's convention? And, since Len has claimed that his MLM career started in 1979, why hasn't he made a million bucks yet? I mean he's been in how many MLMs now, and 32 years later what does he have to show for all of it? Inquiring minds want to know.

USANAWatchDog
03-21-2011, 07:02 PM
There are just over 7 million citizens in Hong Kong. I have a question.

No, you have many questions :)


How can anyone prove that all the distributors listed or registered from/in Hong Kong are actually citizens of Hong Kong?

Nobody can prove it except the Hong Kong government, the Chinese Government, and USANA's corporate office.


How many of these distributors are actually from mainland China or even from Taiwan??

I'm willing to bet that MOST of the distributors in Hong Kong are actually citizens from mainland China. Taiwan is no issue because USANA's MLM structure is allowed in Taiwan.


I find it very hard to believe that you could walk up and down Harbor City or Pacific Place and meet hundreds of Usana reps. How would one actually know or get the true figures for active reps/distributors also?

Only by deciphering USANA's SEC filings and transcripts from quarterly conference calls.


Aren't all MLMs and and any forms of multi level marketing still banned by the Chinese government?

Absolutely. No multilevel marketing recruiting schemes are allowed. Only single level direct selling companies are allowed. USANA purchased Babycare Ltd. in China which has a direct selling license. It is a single level structure, so distributors cannot recruit more distributors, which forces the distributors to actually sell the product, not the opportunity.

USANA just announced at their Hong Kong convention (within the last few days) that a few of USANA's products have just received approval from the Chinese government to be sold in mainland China. So USANA products will now be sold in mainland China, but only through Babycare Ltd. USANA's MLM business opportunity is still banned.

USANA claims that since their product will now be sold in China, that they will start to lose many of the Hong Kong distributors. This is because many of their Hong Kong distributors are from Mainland China! I believe that if these distributors leave USANA's Hong Kong territory and joins Babycare Ltd., that USANA will likely count those people TWICE. So when their next quarterly statement comes out with distributor figures, be sure to investigate whether the numbers are true, or if they just counted the same person twice.



How are they getting around this?

Well, apparently USANA believes it is perfectly legal for Chinese Nationals to open up a bank account in Hong Kong and become a USANA distributor in the Hong Kong territory.


How many reps are they claiming are in Singapore?

USANA did not disclose their active associate numbers for Singapore for their last quarterly report. I did request from USANA their associate numbers during their 2nd quarter last year and compiled it in the following table: USANA Watch Dog - MLM Pyramid Scheme Scam?: USANA's Active Associate Per Territory, Evidence of Illegal Recruiting in Mainland China, and Misleading Philippines Associate Figures. (http://usanawatchdog.blogspot.com/2010/08/usanas-active-associate-per-territory.html)



Also the populace are still very much into natural herbs, teas, various ingredients like fish oils, certain parts of various sea creatures, various algaes, roots, leaves, berries, fungal products and the like. I do know that a lot of Centrum is sold there, though. Do Usana product meet all of the requirements, labeling requirements, ingredient and other regulations to be sold there? (Chinese Medicine Ordinance)

Four of USANA products are approved in China and will be sold through Babycare Ltd.



I have another question.

Another question?!


Are the numbers of distributors counted as such just because they are buying the products for personal use/consumption and not selling it/them?


Active Associates are counted each quarter as long as they purchase 100 Personal Sales Volume (About $112) worth of product at least one time during the last 3 months. This 100 PSV is not a “SALE” at all, but actually a “PURCHASE” by the distributor themselves. This requirement is what actually keeps the pyramid scheme churning. If USANA did not require this mandatory purchase, then USANA would go out of business because the only people who would purchase the product would be those who actually want it.


Are those people in the mix of numbers as well as though selling the products?

USANA does not provide any information regarding actual sales by their distributors. These are disclosures that should be required. In fact, they would be required if MLMs were required to abide by the “Franchise Rule”. The ONLY way MLMs skirt the Franchise Rule is because MLMs like USANA charge less than $500 to "join" the business. USANA only requires $20 to “Join” the business..

I think this is BS because a lot of distributors end up purchasing over $1000 to start their distributorship, ie the purchase of their “Professional Starter Pack” for $1200.


Is anyone who purchases the product(s) called a "distributor"?

USANA has a section for “Preferred Customers” who only want to purchase the product. Anyone who purchases a Business Opportunity Start Kit for $20 is considered an “Associate” or a “Distributor”. Anyone who purchases their 100 PSV requirement for a given 28 day period is considered “Active”.


Sorry this response took so long. I'm about to be a father and have been working hard on the house among other things.

A Life Aloft
03-21-2011, 09:23 PM
I want to thank you so very much for addressing every one of my questions and doing it in exactly the concise details that I was looking for. This is very enlightening and eye opening. I suspected a bit of the info but I am surprised by most of what you provided here. Clever bastards aren't they? I bet that you are also correct in your assumptions about their operations and in detail what they are doing and how these numbers are counted, etc. There is a huge amount of b.s. in the details isn't there? It's very reminiscent of the old "Shell Game", to me.

As I understand it, Baby Care has been doing business in Mainland China for some 11 or 12 years. They had investors in Hong Kong and in the US, and have (or had) a parent company in the US. I was at first surprised to see that Usana bought Baby Care. But, in doing a bit of research, I see that BC was never very profitable and being that Usana was desperate to get into China........man talk about timing. A parent company most likely happy to dump BC and Usana frothing at the mouth to stick their fingers into China and voilà, there you go. The luck of scammers. Man, they paid a small fortune for BC. Way more than they were worth. BC apparently sold nutritional items for babys and Mothers and provided a lot of other goods and services as well. This explains though how Usana will then be a direct selling business in China and not an MLM. Brother! It tells me also that they will use the licenses/permits or whatever they are called that Baby Care already has set up for approval of Usana's products. Am I correct on this? They will not have to get separate approval for their products that they bring into China now? If that is the case, big loophole there in that system.

I think that original founder of Baby Care has started another business in China which is also geared towards Mothers and babies, but it's some sort of media business. Guess he is out of the picture now. I imagine that Usana will be limited (for now) also to just baby type products, and maybe products for Mothers, which could be anything at this point. Who knows. It will be interesting to see how all of this plays out, if this concept is "accepted" by the citizens of China and how well they do in the long run.

I would still bet my left nut that many, many of the so called distributors registered in Hong Kong are indeed from Mainland China. It's also my understanding that the number of licenses for Direct Selling is really small in China and something like only two dozen companies have this right. Have you learned yet exactly how Usana will structure their compensation plan in China? Have they officially even began business operations there yet?

The real bottom line of course is how Usana reports their numbers. All the numbers. The numbers of active distributors/members (whatever) and the income/earnings of those people. I swear I tried rifling through a bit of it and I am no accountant but I am very familiar with basic business accounting, but so much of it did not make sense to me. You would have to be a forensic accountant to make sense of it and get to the entire truth. That is if you actually had access to all the true data which I do not believe that they make public. I think you see what they want you to see and how they want to present it. I don't how you figure out the poop on those financials. My hat is off to you.

Don't worry at all about answering my couple of questions in this post til it's convenient.

The important and exciting news is it's BABY TIME!!!! CONGRADULATIONS!!! Seriously. This is very wonderful and happy news!!! Sleep while you can!! lol Your life will be forever changed. And it will be changed in marvelous and magical ways that you never imagined. You must be so busy. Babies need so much stuff!!! It only gets worse! lmao My best wishes to you and your wife. Take an evening if you can, before the baby comes for the two of you to spend alone and treat her like your girl. Make it romantic. Buy her something special, just for her. Spoil her. She'll be a Mommy for many years to come, but she'll treasure a special evening before the event. Trust me on this.

Again, thank you so much for all the very informative and detailed answers and CONGRADS DAD!

kschang
05-14-2013, 05:42 PM
FYI, Len Clement's old website was wiped out by his pal who's in jail. He went to a different host and started "insidenm.com" instead.

This "how to detect MLM hype" is actually pretty good advice!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9OtLBvWQ5b0