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mumei101
03-10-2011, 08:24 PM
Guys

I am starting this thread (with kind permission from GlimDropper) because I am writing a piece on Investment scams, specifically Ponzi/HYIP investment scams, and how variants of such scams operate, bait victims, extend life etc. I have been researching such scams on the Internet over the last few weeks (and reading some great books, specifically Eagles), but the subject as a whole still remains my Achilles heel in the subject of Internet crime.

I’m hoping to get as many seasoned views on the subject and where better than the forums of realscam.com. The idea of this thread would be to visit the basics and foundations of a subject so widely discussed on sites like this, but not from the perspective of a specific example, but a broad discussion, and hopefully create a good resource in the mean time.

Of course I would appreciate any time given to helping this thread progress and I welcome all views on the subject.
Now anyone who can use Wikipedia can learn that a Ponzi scheme, in it’s broadest sense, is a pyramid that funds itself significantly on the registration fees of new recruits who are recruited by existing members, so the logical place to begin – for me at least – would be decipher/distinguish between different types of Ponzi schemes. Such as HYIPs/Cash Gifting for example, though I am not necessarily looking for “official” clarifications, rather variations that you guys have seen surface over the last few years – such as for example ponzis that invest money, or try and claim they offer a service. What type of Ponzi would you say club-asterios is? How can different ponzi schemes differ in their bait and operation?

Anyway, thanks in advance for any time you guys give to this thread.
Kind Regards

A Life Aloft
03-11-2011, 02:35 AM
High-yield investment programs, or HYIPs, are one of the hottest investment scams today. The scam purports to offer investors extremely high rates of return on their money, but in reality most participants will have their entire investment stolen. In 2009, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) issued a warning to investors about HYIPs and similar banking-related investment frauds. The Financial Industry Regulatory Authority (FINRA) has stated that virtually every single HYIP it has reviewed appears to be fraudulent.

HYIP scams are readily identifiable by the incredibly high rates of return they advertise to lure in victims. In the current low interest environment where banks are offering less than 2% interest annually on your deposits, HYIPs appear to offer a very lucrative opportunity. Then there are the claims/hooks: These include excessive guaranteed returns, fictitious financial instruments, extreme secrecy, claims that the investments are an exclusive opportunity, and inordinate complexity surrounding the investments.

HYIP programs claim to make extraordinary returns through a variety of implausible stories, including stock market trading, sports betting or other alternative investments. A quick survey of several HYIP scams showed advertised rates of return ranging from 100% per day to 0.5% per day. (For more, see Are Structured Retail Products Too Good To Be True?)

These unsustainable rates of return clearly indicate that these are not real ventures. Consider what you personally could do if you needed to raise money for a business venture. One of the easiest things to do would be to take a cash advance from your credit card, and pay an interest rate of perhaps 20% per year. This is a high interest rate.

But let's say that alternatively, you could set up a HYIP-type program where you could loan money from investors for 1% interest per day. If you chose this option, you would be paying an effective rate of interest of about 3,600% per year! Any legitimate businessperson would be able to obtain financing at a lower rate.

So how do these HYIP schemes manage to pay over 3,000% interest rates when banks pay 2%? The short answer is that they don't. In reality, a HYIP is just a Ponzi scheme. The money from new investors is used to pay interest to old investors. This creates a need for new investors, which increases exponentially.

The more money that is invested, the more new money must be obtained to continue paying old investors. At some point, it becomes impossible to bring in enough new money to keep the scam going. At this point, having accumulated the most money possible, the organizer of the HYIP takes all of the money invested and disappears.

It is easy to spot the vast majority of HYIP scams. Many HYIPs claim to offer such absurdly high rates of return that even the most naive of investors should be skeptical. For the most part, you can avoid these scams just by following the old rule: if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Note that for a while, it is possible for a HYIP to pay out returns to the first people in on the scheme. This is important because this allows HYIPs to gain good reviews from real investors in order to lure in others. Don't fall for it. You never know when the scammers will close up shop, and your money will be long gone.

The SEC suggests you watch out for the following signs of HYIP fraud:

Excessive, unsustainable returns
Schemes involving fictitious financial instruments
Secrecy surrounding transactions
Offer a supposedly exclusive opportunity
Vague and inordinately complex investment pitches
The SEC advises that individuals that have information about HYIP scams should contact the SEC's Division of Enforcement.

When it comes to investing your money, don't be drawn in by scams that seem too good to be true. Stick with established financial institutions and investments that are clearly legitimate. If there is any doubt, do not hand over your money.

Pyramid schemes and Ponzi schemes share many similar characteristics in which unsuspecting individuals are fooled by unscrupulous investors who promise extraordinary returns. However, in contrast to a regular investment, these types of schemes can offer consistent "profits" only as long as the number of investors continues to increase. Ponzi and pyramid schemes are self sustaining as long as cash outflows can be matched by monetary inflows. The basic difference arises in the type of products that schemers offer their clients and the structure of the two ploys.

Ponzi schemes are based on fraudulent investment management services – basically investors contribute money to the "portfolio manager" who promises them a high return, and then when those investors want their money back they are paid out with the incoming funds contributed by later investors. The person organizing this type of fraud is in charge of controlling the entire operation; they merely transfer funds from one client to another and forgo any real investment activities.

On the other hand, a pyramid scheme is structured so that the initial schemer must recruit other investors who will continue to recruit other investors and those investors will then continue to recruit additional investors and so on. Sometimes there will be an incentive that is presented as an investment opportunity, such as the right to sell a particular product. Each investor pays the person who recruited them for the chance to sell this item. The recipient must share the proceeds with those at the higher levels of the pyramid structure. For both schemes, however, eventually there isn't enough money to go around and the schemes always unravel at some point.

Is this the kind of info you are seeking?

A Life Aloft
03-11-2011, 02:45 AM
One thing I have noticed is the last few years, is the rise of affinity fraud. Affinity fraud occurs when investment scams are targeted at specific groups of people. These groups usually include the elderly, the religious, those with certain health/illness issues, or professionals. Unfortunately, the very people who do the scamming can sometimes be the ones that people trust the most, such as "pastors", pseudo doctors, co-workers, neighbors, etc. Affinity fraud occurs when specific groups of people are targeted with the intention to scam them out of money. Usually, a relationship is exploited, as in the case of a friendship, a religious association or relying on the loyalty to a common group. Many leaders of these groups trust the scammer and unfortunately help spread the scammer's message.

One of the reasons affinity scams are so successful is that they rely on loyalty and testimonials. Many times the scammer will use names of others from their group to convince them that they are in good company. The scammer relies on the fact that the investor feels comfortable within this group of people and shares a sense of community with them. By learning that others within their group have already invested, investors are less skeptical and have their guard down.

One of the most common types of affinity fraud is targeted at religious or ethnic groups. It may be difficult to detect fraud within these groups due to their tight structure. Also due to their relationships with one another, these groups are less likely to report victimization to authorities. Usually prominent members of the group are targeted first so that others will feel more comfortable with their recommendation. I have seen the scammers invading all sorts of organizations and clubs, that they never did previously also. You will see "opportunities" even being promoted at gyms and health clubs now.

Many different types of groups can be targeted. The elderly have long been targets of many different types of investment scams. Affinity fraud is no exception. The ploy is to give an illusion of security which is something that many elderly are searching for. Professional groups are another easy target. Scammers find any group that is close-knit where they can prey upon that relationship. By learning that others within their group have already invested, the investor is less skeptical and has their guard down.

Another commonly targeted group by affinity fraud is the elderly. Fraudsters have been known to convince senior citizens to liquidate their retirement to buy securities that are never actually purchased. Some elderly have trusted their investment advisors with their retirement only to find that their money had never been invested and is long gone. When the economy is doing poorly, a lot of people look to make back the money they lost in the stock market. This is a time when people are more vulnerable than ever to these types of scams. This is why Bernie Madoff was so successful, I believe. He exploited the elderly and a rather large group of Hollywood big wigs. He then used those names for references to bring in more clients. He also had the elderly clients recommending him to their friends.

A Life Aloft
03-11-2011, 03:05 AM
As far as cash gifting, I love these phrases:

“Discover the top cash gifting program– guaranteed and proven results!”

“Automatic cash gifting-let us do all the work. Make money doing nothing!”

“Cash gifting with integrity!”

"This program is serious!!"

"We are unique!"

These are just a few ads typical of cash gifting programs, which are presented as legal money making opportunities based on the IRS Tax Code, which allows anyone to give individual cash gifts of up to $12,000 per calendar year to any number of individuals. However, they leave out the pertinent part of the code. If your cash gift is to qualify under IRS regulations,and therefore be deemed legal, it must be given with no strings attached. You can’t get anything in return from the gift’s recipient. It is this restriction which has given rise to the many creative ways in which cash gifting programs have tried to separate themselves from elaborate Ponzi schemes. They try to be clever to skirt the tax laws. Many cash gifting programs trying to avoid a Ponzi label have steered clear of calling themselves investments. Investments fall under SEC regulations and those suspected of being fraudulent can be shut down. There are criminal penalties for those who engage in illegal investment activities. Cash gifting programs will also avoid calling themselves business opportunities, because that name implies the existence of a contract between a buyer and a seller, for goods or services and would be regulated by state laws. They will often promote themselves at invitation only gatherings similar to Tupperware parties, except that no product is being sold. lol

Cash gifting programs promise enormous returns while claiming to operate within the letter of the law. They reach out to potential members in a variety of ways, but all of them have the same goal: to create a pyramid structure of cash giving individuals, with the “gifts” of those joining being funneled directly to the members at the top.

The members at the top of the pyramid, once they have been paid their promised reward, are free to leave the program. If they remain, they must start over at the bottom. The members at the base then move up one level and wait for enough new members to join to push them to the top where they to will receive their promised reward. Cash gifting programs, in other words, are nothing more than recruitment schemes. Most of them offer no tangible product or service. In order to avoid being tagged as illegal pyramid schemes, many cash gifting program operators have come up with program structures designed to give them an air of legitimacy.

Theres the One-Up program, for example. Promoters of one-up cash gifting separate their programs from others by saying that these programs are structured to avoid the pyramid label. These programs rely instead on “receiving lines.” So, what are receiving lines? Member A gets a phone call from someone who wants to join the program. This person joins as Member B, becoming Member A’s receiving line, and sending Member A the stipulated amount of cash. Member B is then free to start taking phone calls from other potential members. Member B persuades Member C to join. Member C’s money goes to Member A, and Member B is removed from Member A’s receiving line, and free to start his or her own. Member C recruits Member D, who sends money to Member A and remains in Member A’s receiving line while Member C is free to start receiving lines. Each person who joins under Member A’s receiving line must give Member A both his cash gift, and the first cash gift generated by his own receiving line. That’s his own money, and the money from the first person recruited by his each of his recruits.

One of the best-known of these systems allows new members to join at different levels of participation according to what they can afford - $500, $1,500, $2,000, or $3,500 (if they want their receiving lines to cover new members at all levels). What this means is that a person’s receiving line will be limited to members at their level or lower, until that person upgrades by making a bigger “gift.” That is, of course, unless someone can afford the $3500 up front. Anyone who can is entitled to go after all newcomers, including those who were the only hope members at lower levels had of breaking even or profiting. The promoters of this system overlook that particular aspect, concentrating instead on the fact that no receiving line ever has more than one new recruit paying one existing member, so there is no resemblance to a pyramid scheme.

Each person Member A directly recruits becomes another potential receiving line. The promoters of one-up cash gifting systems claim that because millions of people are phoning system members each day to find out how to join, existing members will have no difficulty getting their first recruits. The regular spin is that they will usually have multiple recruits within two or three days.

A response in the millions, however, would require a massive promotional effort, which also costs money. So, if the only money going into the program is being passed from member to member, how are the promotions paid for? Hmmmmm...that woould be membership fees. Or, they’re paid for by the members themselves, who have to do some old-fashioned cold calling, using scripts provided by the program “mentors,” advertising, or list buying in order to generate new leads. One of the more popular of these programs offers its members a daily “training” call, which is often more of a pep talk than an actual learning experience, and weekly “overview” calls. This program, however, doesn’t allow its members to use the Internet as a promotional medium. That alone sets it apart from many of its competitors.

Once the members have found some genuine leads, they invite those people to participate in the program’s weekly conference calls, during which they’ll be officially invited to participate. Some one-up systems also offer software tracking systems administered by third parties so that, for a fee, members can keep current on their receiving lines and income. The normal cost of these systems is between $100 and $130 per year.

Another of these programs provides its potential members with a free e-book containing seven of the program’s methods for getting new members (including setting up a website, using Google pay-per-click ads, and buying $625 worth of advertising postcards sent by an automated system to names on a home business prospects list). Anyone getting money from this system would be smart to set part of it aside to cover the ongoing costs of finding new recruits.

There are also multi-level cash gifting scams. The differences between one-up cash gifting and multi-level cash giving programs are more than structural; they have very dissimilar approaches to recruiting. Most multi-level programs have existing members known as “presenters” arrange invitation-only gatherings, at which they make their pitch for new members.

These cash gifting programs operate like traditional MLMs (Tupperware or Oxyfresh, for example) except that they offer neither products nor services. Many of them are gender specific, attracting women by offering them financial empowerment, or men by sales pitches liberally sprinkled with masculine metaphors.

One cash gifting club used an airplane theme, (my personal fave lol) with newly recruited members buying on as passengers at $1,500 per head. When all the “seats” on the plane were full, the passengers were upgraded to “pilots” and only then could they begin recruiting new passengers, with the chance to earn $12,000 if they filled their own planes with the required eight recruits. lmao

Cash gifting “dinner clubs” set up dinner parties for recruits, aiming to get eight new participants (”appetizers”) putting up $5,000 each at a party for the person at the top level (”dessert”) of the club, who will get $40,000. The two levels in between the appetizers and the dessert are called the soup and salad (four members) and entrees (two members). When the dessert receives her $40,000, which comes via FedEx or UPS, and is often wrapped as a birthday gift, the remaining tiers are split into two new “tables” and the members of each go in search of eight new “appetizers.” The late-comers to the dinner party, however, are in danger on encountering famine instead of feast. Why? Because any tiered cash gifting club eventually exhausts the available pool of new members. Authorities at all levels estimate that only one in ten participants in a cash gifting club reach the top level and get paid.

Then we have the meetings. The “presenters” at cash gifting program gatherings give chalkboard or Power Point presentations which invariably end up with an image of a pyramid, showing how each member will make his or her way from the base to the top, where they will get the big payoff. The money contributed by an incoming member goes to the top of the pyramid immediately, while the penniless member sits at the base of the pyramid until enough other members join to completely pay off the member at the top and move everyone else up a notch. Once a member is paid off, he or she is free to move on, but for a club to keep working, the money given to that member will have to be replaced from somewhere.

If, for example, the promised payout of a cash gifting club is $20,000, and the gift required is $2,500, only eight new members must be recruited to pay off one old member. But what happens when a club reaches 100 members? If each of them is to get the full $20,000, for a total of $2,000,000, then 800 people must join. If each of them is to be paid, 6,400 must join. With each new level, the numbers grow more unrealistic.

For this example club, with its relatively low gifting and payout levels of $2,500 and $20,000, to continue for only two cycles after it gets its 100th member, 51,200 members must join. Many clubs count on their paid off members to keep returning. Even if they all do, it is mathematically impossible for a cash gifting club to survive without an exponentially increasing membership base.

When the pool of new members dries up, so do the cash gifts, and any members who joined too late are out of luck - not to mention money.

littleroundman
03-11-2011, 09:51 AM
A couple of quick points which came to mind as I read the posts above:

* It is common for fraudsters to deliberately confuse the issues around whether the particular scam du jour conforms strictly to the definition of "ponzi" or "pyramid" or "autosurf" or "HYIP"

For example, during the halcyon days of 12 Daily pro, it was fashionable for shills to use the phrase "12DP can not be a pure ponzi because............"
As if it made any difference in law, whether it was a "pure" ponzi or a "sorta" ponzi.

It is well worth noting that the words "ponzi" and "pyramid" were not used (other than descriptively in the body of the document/s) in either the ASD civil or criminal actions.

Rather, the charges involve fraud, wire fraud, conspiracy, money laundering and securities violations.

IOW, a fraudster cannot expect to escape prosecution based on what he/she SAYS is happening.

Calling illegal "gifting" an "aeroplane game" or a "dinner club" or saying a HYIP is not a "pure" ponzi because 5% of the income comes from selling credit card sleeves doesn't alter the fact that fraud is fraud is fraud, no matter how you cut it or colour it.

littleroundman
03-11-2011, 10:07 AM
A rule of thumb to remember is:

There are many, many high yield INVESTMENTS.

There are simply NO high yield investment PROGRAMS.

Shares rise, companies are successful and their share prices rise, people buy things low and sell high and return a large profit BUT NOT ENOUGH TO FINANCE AN ONGOING "PROGRAM"

For example, I know an investor who purchased thousands of shares in Poseidon Nickel @ 80c/share in 1969 and the share price eventually rose to $280/share in 1970 making him a paper millionaire many times over, before the nickel bubble burst and Poseidon was delisted from the stock exchange in 1976.

A high yield investment ??? Sure bloody was.

A high yield investment PROGRAM sustainable enough to pay better than bank interest over any length of time ??? NO BLOODY WAY.

laidback
03-11-2011, 10:31 AM
One of the claims made by the "players" is that the admin was "honest" and didn't run with the money. This is BS, because when the "program is set up, the first maxed account or accounts are all owned by him/her.This provides that the first and biggest interest payments go to the admin.
@LRM Being a "sorts" ponzi is like being "sorta" pregnant ain't it?

littleroundman
03-11-2011, 10:54 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/True_humility.png/370px-True_humility.png
Bishop: "I'm afraid you've got a bad egg, Mr Jones";
Curate: "Oh, no, my Lord, I assure you that parts of it are excellent!"

"True Humility" by George du Maurier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_du_Maurier), originally published in Punch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_%28magazine%29), 1895.

For "egg" substitute "HYIP"

littleroundman
03-11-2011, 11:06 AM
One of the claims made by the "players" is that the admin was "honest" and didn't run with the money. This is BS, because when the "program is set up, the first maxed account or accounts are all owned by him/her.This provides that the first and biggest interest payments go to the admin.


Back in the day (whoo hoo, I've always wanted to include that in a post)

Anyway,

back in the good ol' days when HYIPs really WERE games, well according to legend, anyway.

There was supposed to be a set of rules.

IOW, the admin would set a predetermined amount or % to cover his/her expenses and profit, usually around 80% of all income.

When payouts reached that amount and/or when payouts started exceeding income, he/she would stop the game or suspend it until the next round started.

It's all fantasy, of course.

No one ever knew whether or not the owner/admin was resisting temptation to fudge the figures and skimming off more than he/she was "entitled"

Sounds like it was HYIP heaven back then, but it's all B/S.

"Admins" were as honest then as they are now,

IOW, they're NOT.

laidback
03-11-2011, 11:13 AM
LOL. I just love the shills claiming that someone that intentionally sets out to obtain money illegally is "honest"!

littleroundman
03-11-2011, 11:28 AM
LOL. I just love the shills claiming that someone that intentionally sets out to obtain money illegally is "honest"!

I think in a few years, psychs will probably find there's a certain element of S & M involved in the HYIP ponzi "scene":

"Than you, thank you, admin for only ripping me off for half my money. You really ARE an honest admin. Beat me, whip me and beat me some more. I LOVE when you hurt me"

GlimDropper
03-11-2011, 01:32 PM
Thanks for the thread mumei, if any of you didn't notice the link in his sig his site is That's Nonsense (http://www.thatsnonsense.com/index.php) and is well worth a look.

HYIPs and other online ponzi schemes are in some ways the simplest scams to understand, they don't make money they just move it from one person to another. What really is what makes them interesting, why does one fail to attract a following while another garners near cultish devotion? And how do they manage the inevitable implosion when the law, either of mathematics or the kind with handcuffs catches up with them.

Any idiot can buy a surf site script and open a few payment processor accounts but it takes either luck or some marketing savvy to start the snowball effect. Take a look at some of the pimp forums, talkgold, moneymakergroup or any of the countless wannabees, there are dozens of one page programs for every hundred page "success" story. Luck can't be dismissed but there are a good number of skills involved as well. Some simple, don't start one of these "programs" in early autumn because a significant number of your nest egg investors will want to withdraw cash for Christmas and if you don't have enough cash reserve you wont have a happy new year.

But the most important factor in a program's success are the promoters, people with long e-mail lists who move from program to program bringing their "downlines" with them. As time has gone on the more important "referral commissions" have become. These programs survive always and only by attracting fresh cash so it makes sense that the biggest payoffs are to the best recruiters. Club Asteria is a perfect example, someone with a maxed out "Asterio balance" can earn no more than $400/month (and actually rather less than that) but there's a commission of near 50% on all monthly dues paid in by people you directly recruit. This is before you add in the elaborate "comp plan" for any network you build.

There are people who make their living attracting new sheep to these programs. The Ken Russos and Faith Sloans of the world cut back room deals with program owners to line their respective pockets with other peoples cash. Broker Jones and other second tier players aspire to do the same (well Broker took a detour out of HYIP games, through MLM and onto running his own "program"). The key is earning some level of trust with your followers and then selling them on and to new programs. Actually the key is to be able to replace the followers you lose every time a program you pitched costs them money.

Others here are better able to address some of the universal techniques. How to manage your investors fears when inevitable cash flow problems arise. "Server issues," "payment processor problems" and the litany of other stock excuses. And that might be more of what mumei is looking for here. My addition for the moment is just an "oldy but a goodie" from one of the pimp forums. I can't vouch for it's total authenticity but it does a good job of introducing you to the mind set of some HYIP Admins:


Dear Invex Ltd. Players,

This is a long message and will be the last news you will hear from us...
until we open our next HYIP
We want, kindly, recommend you stop losing your time by looking after us.
Anyway, for the cyber detectives, here is how we worked.

1- The basis is having 100% false ID documents. For $200 you get a really
nice looking pack of documents, even nicer than legal ones

2- We rented a nice apartment with fast internet in a nice city near the
sea, with false documents. We then bought a new desktop computer and a
new laptop, installed some fresh programs.

3- We opened a bank account with false documents, put some cash on the
account, and got a nice true debit card.

4- We opened e-gold accounts and funded them from the bank account above.

5- A bit later we opened e-bullion accounts, funded by... you, idiots who
"invested"

OK? Now we have e-gold, internet, a place to sleep, eat etc, all without
possibility to track us. A major question was "Must we open a real company".

We decided that NO, as people are so stupid that they believe all what they
read. And you know what? It is true Invex Ltd. and Lomax Group Corp. are
pure fantasy


Okay, let's go to work now!


1- Opening a domain name and booking a server at the katzglobal scammers'
best place, paying with e-gold.

2- Later, booking a dedicated server and paying with... the debit card
coming from the bank account above

3- Renting Prolexic, and paying them by bank transfers from.... an e-gold
exchanger The gold came from YOU idiots who "invested" !


To spe******ts who want to track us by the IP addresses, we kindly
recommend you to use Google and look at [Redacted] etc.
You will understand that our IP come from anywhere in the world, beeing
chained between servers who cannot track them.
And even if so, the last IP address, the place where we lived, was this nice
appartment near the sea, that we left some weeks ago Oh, the computers were given to a charity, after the hard disks were physically deleted

Other pros say "Let's track the money"! Great idea, but don't forget that
even the ******* muslim terrorists cannot be tracked by the special services


How did we withdraw all your nice donations? That's easy, thanks to
mygcard who supplied us hundreds of anonymous debit cards that our
friedns and us used in various countries! Alain Vignard from mygcard
received $20.000 cash in hands for helping us to find the ATM with no
"$800/day limits", and telling us how to use the cards at the best. Well,
Alain tried to scam us later, but that is another story.

We also used bank transfers from the best exchangers, who have no
problem at all sending $100,000 or $200,000 every 3 days to bank
accounts in Panama,the BVI, etc Nice offshore places outside the
EU and the US Track the money there, dear friends!

Oh, about exchangers, we worked with one of them from Australia, and
where a bit afraid at the beginning, as he wrote on his website that he
"verifiesALL data" from his clients. LOL ! His fee is 2%, we kindly offered
him 2% more "to preserve our privacy" Look at our dialogue by email:

- HIM: 2% more is a good offer, but is your gold clean? We don't want to
work with scammers.

- US: Of course, what are you thinking? We are honest businessmen and
just want to keep a low profile.

- HIM: OK, i can see you are not scammers, just send me the gold and 4%
fee instead of the regular 2%.


Thank you mister G. ))



As I am in a very good mood, I will also explain you something: Most of the
biggest HYIP are run by us, a professional team. And when other scammers try to enter our market, BING! If they are interesting people we try to buy
them, if not DDOS attacks make them shutdown To be sure our rating is the
best one, we also pay the admins of a few monitoring programs, including
the biggest and "most reliable" (LOOOOL) one!

Our business is to make money. We use 20% of the money we get to help
poor and disabled people around each of us, 20% other is given to some
"political" associations that fight against ISLAM (Hey guys from the
Emirates, Bahrein, Kuwait, etc etc, did you read this? THANK YOU , and the
balance is for us.

We have currently a dozen of HYIP running, are going to close some of
them, and of course to open new ones! We are working like this since a few
years, and all is working fine!


But you know, it IS possible to make profit from HYIP: Just do it QUICKLY!
Look: teamaaronshara@bellsouth.net made $6,580 profit with us, including
the commissions they got by sending YOU IDIOTS, to Invex. These people
are really scumbags: They are making profit by making you lose!


As a clever guy told in some forum, "there were no guarantees, so no need
to cry". YEP! We NEVER gave any guarantee to ANYBODY (unless Titanium
plans, and you should notice that THESE guys do NOT cry on your forum,
try to guess why...!), we even recommended those who ask for guarantees
to go to their local bank They didn't? THEIR CHOICE!

When reading your forum and others, we really laugh! So, most of you were
already scammed by other HYIP? By our HYIP maybe Anyway, it seems that
you don't understand what a teenager is able to understand! So, you
continue to "invest" here and there, and that is good... FOR US! For you, I
am not sure When I see a GREAT SPE******T, the "Andrewunknown", proudly saying that he lost $40,000 into Invex but that he will recover from
other HYIP, WE ARE LAUGHING, FALLING FROM OUR CHAIRS )))) Moreover in
his list of "no ponzi", LOL, some of them are from us ))))


Now some personal messages:


- liquidteq@[Redacted] threatened us to send "the FBI and the CIA against
us" ) better you keep your energy to work and recover your $600 ONLY
that you sent us, than saying such BS )))


- "AROBASE", "LUCIEN", "IGOR": YOU will be refunded partially, we contacted
you some hours ago.

- "vanderschalk-group" is a clever guy: He made about $45k profit from Invex


- "ANATOLI" is the best one: he made about $170k profit from Invex, even
with what we kept from him when we closed!

- lewisfargo, caro, anhvn06, ydna, janhkok, profitondemand, HIPsyD,
promax, brewmanau, adtype13sg, , Johnnyslide, etc etc are also in big profit
(Between $10k and $50k) from Invex.

Feel free to find and contact them to ask to share ))


Well that's all, folks! We are anyway in touch with a few of you through
other HYIP, under other names of course! Good luck


Shalom!
Renaud, Kathy, Oliver, David.

okosh
03-11-2011, 03:33 PM
I think in a few years, psychs will probably find there's a certain element of S & M involved in the HYIP ponzi "scene":

"Than you, thank you, admin for only ripping me off for half my money. You really ARE an honest admin. Beat me, whip me and beat me some more. I LOVE when you hurt me"

And the whole time they were being "paid" it was with their own money.

mumei101
03-12-2011, 10:55 AM
Guys,
Thanks for all the information, its been great and a good read, especially a_life_alofts posts.

I have recently seen a lot of pyramid scams that purport to offer services to mask a rather obvious pyramid structure, like club asteria which "offers educational programs for enterpeneurs" or yournight.com and zingsocial.com which claimed to be the next step in social networking or even Tazoodle which was apparently the next big search engine to rival Google. Programs like these bait people into joining by claiming they will make money, as opposed to the supposed "service" the scheme is providing (who joined ZingSocial.com to actually social network?) - the question is how would members here categorize such schemes? Ponzi? Illegal Pyramid? Or Hybrids? Do members have their own unofficial categories for schemes like club-asteria? - (i.e. schemes that claim to offer services to mask pyramid structure) LRM touched on classifying scams like this, but Im focussing on how <i>you</i> classify them as opposed to how they classify themselves.

Additionally, what tactics do these types of schemes use to extend their lifecycle - and related to that question - what signs present themselves when a scheme is failing?

Again, thanks for the information provided thus far - its been exactly what I am looking for.

A Life Aloft
03-12-2011, 12:43 PM
Mumei, I am glad that the info I provided was helpful to you. I wasn't sure what you heed and kinda guessed. When I have more time this weekend, I will try to post more related to your last post above. Been a little crazy here and I have a hundred more gray hairs now. My son was in Tokyo when the quake struck. He's a pilot for Fed Ex. He and his crew are finally home now, so I plan on seeing him today. NRT was closed still has no incoming flights and only a few were departing and there are still many crews and pax for other carriers stranded there. Very worrisome considering what is happening with the two nuclear plants now. HND is is the same shape. Few departures, no landings as it was also closed for a time. Little SDJ completely swamped by water and heavily damaged. OKO no inbound and few outbound flights. It's a mess. Was up most of one night, (Thursday) because of this. Plus it's Little League season and I am taking my grandson and my two sister in laws boys to get "stuff" at Sports Authority and then to the park to practice a few hours and then I have quite a bit of scheduled maintainence to do and superivise on two planes. I won't be home til later tonight. But I am off tomorrow (although if I don't get my business and personal taxes finished to send to my accountant- she is going to seriously kill me lol) so I will see what I can come up with as time permits.

One of the red flags for all MLMs is their reluctance to publish their financials. I wrote about this in another thread. In looking at their financials, one can easily see just how and where the money goes and how little is paid out and for what. This is why they mostly never do this. lol You can also follow and understand how they have really structured themselves and how the leaders and owners are being compensated and exactly what the money/income is spent on. If the members of these scams had access to this info, it would make the ones who still had any critical thinking skills, faint.

http://www.realscam.com/f9/why-mlms-never-release-their-financial-statments-255/

It's often become more difficult to ascertain what to call/classify some MLMs because they have borrowed compensation plans and mixed/interwtined the compensation plans, plus no matter what they say, they change the compensation plans at the drop of a hat and sometimes the "products" and or "services" when they have run dry, to keep the scam going or when they are starting to get too many complaints, loss of the members, loss of new recruits and even perhaps he authories are starting to look at them. So the waters have become muddied so to speak because of these what I call "combo" compensation plans and the "evolving" compensation plans which are always touted as something like "the new and improved ways to make more streams of income", "the new ways to to reach your goals", "more ways to make money and be successful" or other such b.s. lines.

I am no expert by any means, but I have been researching MLM scams for several years now. LRM is far more knowledgeable than I am and more importantly has followed many scammers (the leaders and founders/owners) from scam to scam, far more than I have. He knows more than I have forgotten. I started out just studying the travel MLMs for example because that was something that I had some knowledge of. Then expanded from there. It's been quite the education thus far and I learn much from LRM, Glim, SBM and others here and from the likes of bloggers like Patrick and other good sites, various organizations and a few books. The actual lay outs, the phony products, (especially the lack of science and medical proof- I enjoy researching the products) the hype, the compensation plans of these scams and how they "work" and what they use to con people, interest me the most. Following the history of the leaders/players and owners themselves is something that I just don't have the time to follow and I am not very good at it, so I am glad that others here can provide this info because I am lacking badly there. It's almost like a huge genealogy tree. lol Then it becomes more complicated due to some of the promoters changing their names and IDs. I don't know how the hell LRM keeps up with this crap. You have to be Dr. Watson and Sherlock Holmes. It's beyond me.

Forgot to mention, that I had never looked at your link and I am glad that Glim mentioned it. It's a great site! Will persuse it more soon.

scratchycat
03-12-2011, 03:52 PM
This post might not fit here but I just got it in email. I read something about a PayPal hoax, not sure if this is it or not. But it is definitely a hoax in my opinion.
Steven Rounds launches Profit Siege System (http://www.imnewswatch.com/2011/02/24/steven-rounds-launches-profit-siege-system/)

mumei101
03-12-2011, 08:08 PM
Thanks for the comments life_aloft, will get around to reading your link shortly.

honestme11, - the "system" you linked to is indeed a typical scammy get-rich-quick scam. no automated software will earn you thousands of dollars a day. these get-rich-quick scams are what I know most about, you want to start your own thread really though because this one is not related to the thread subject. (i.e. "opportunities" involving pyramids) Glad to confirm your opinion though ;)

Regards

A Life Aloft
03-12-2011, 09:18 PM
This post might not fit here but I just got it in email. I read something about a PayPal hoax, not sure if this is it or not. But it is definitely a hoax in my opinion.
Steven Rounds launches Profit Siege System (http://www.imnewswatch.com/2011/02/24/steven-rounds-launches-profit-siege-system/)I just looked this character up online because Pay Pal was mentioned. One of his crazied assed sites has him driveling (frankly he sounds like he has more loose screws than a 58 Ford) about Pay Pal for some 14 pages. He even claims to be former employee. I then called the Fraud Department of Pay Pal and just got off the phone with them. I explained the reason for the call, gave them his name and website and sent them emails of the links I had and screen shots and read them parts of them to the rep. He is promoting a huge scam and using Pay Pay in his b.s. claims to promote and advertise his scam. He even has screen shots from Pay Pay, is making fraudulent claims about Pay Pay, claims to have written software for them and is slandering them all over the internet. I was then turned over to a Supervisor who was actually speechless when she heard what I was saying and read the emails and went to one of his sites. We have used Pay Pal for many years and never had an issue with them once. I consider them to be an upstanding and excellent pay system. One of the reasons that I respect them, is that they will not let any scammer use their services. Ever. They provide security and sincerely care about protecting consumers and their clients. The Supervisor is turning the info over to their legal department immediately and could not thank me enough for providing them with this info and even offered to send me some PayPal Bucks. (Ebay here we come lol) Should be interesting to see what happens.

littleroundman
03-12-2011, 10:26 PM
It's fashionable for fraudsters to invoke the "the little guy vs big bad Paypal" excuse to cover the fact Paypal at least tries to make it's service as scammer-proof as possible.

I have yet to inform Paypal of a breach of its' terms by a fraudster and had them ignore my complaint.

Like any business of its' size, problems are bound to occur from time to time, but I have seen very few cases where Paypal has withdrawn membership privileges from a business without very good reason.

At the very least, the fact an online "opportunity" does not accept Paypal, has its' Paypal account closed and/or only accepts payment via bank wire or one of the "usual suspect" payment processors should serve as a very big "red flag"

laidback
03-13-2011, 12:14 AM
It's fashionable for fraudsters to invoke the "the little guy vs big bad Paypal" excuse to cover the fact Paypal at least tries to make it's service as scammer-proof as possible.

I have yet to inform Paypal of a breach of its' terms by a fraudster and had them ignore my complaint.

Like any business of its' size, problems are bound to occur from time to time, but I have seen very few cases where Paypal has withdrawn membership privileges from a business without very good reason.

At the very least, the fact an online "opportunity" does not accept Paypal, has its' Paypal account closed and/or only accepts payment via bank wire or one of the "usual suspect" payment processors should serve as a very big "red flag"

There is a sports betting "opportunity" called Alliance Funds on MMG that wants its members that want to use Paypal to jump through hoops to do it. Here is a link to some of the thread.

Alliance Funds - Alliancefunds.net (http://www.moneymakergroup.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=367442&view=findpost&p=6441112)

A Life Aloft
03-13-2011, 12:45 AM
I loved this statement: "We are considering in the future to obtain approval from PayPal, but that requires some extra paper work and legal issues." Good luck there, pal. lol Right there he stating they have legal issues. After reading that, how do the alarms not go off for people? Not to mention, "Alliance funds is not a registered business at this point of time." Good grief. And idiots just keep sending them money irregardless. (shakes head) One fool even thanked him for the explaination and the fast reply. He deserves to get ripped off.

Then this moron posts what he made:

You have received a payment to your account U4XXXXXX:
Date: 2011-01-02 04:07:38
Batch: 54436931
From Account: u2755786
Amount: $1.00
Memo: Withdraw to ELREBEL from alliancefunds.net
Thank you.

He goes through all this to make literally $1.00??? Are you kidding me?

laidback
03-13-2011, 08:58 AM
I loved this statement: "We are considering in the future to obtain approval from PayPal, but that requires some extra paper work and legal issues." Good luck there, pal. lol Right there he stating they have legal issues. After reading that, how do the alarms not go off for people? Not to mention, "Alliance funds is not a registered business at this point of time." Good grief. And idiots just keep sending them money irregardless. (shakes head) One fool even thanked him for the explaination and the fast reply. He deserves to get ripped off.

Then this moron posts what he made:

You have received a payment to your account U4XXXXXX:
Date: 2011-01-02 04:07:38
Batch: 54436931
From Account: u2755786
Amount: $1.00
Memo: Withdraw to ELREBEL from alliancefunds.net
Thank you.

He goes through all this to make literally $1.00??? Are you kidding me?

LOL! ALA, if he actually "made" a dollar it might be notable, but he has only received back a percentage of what he has deposited. He ain't "made" sh*t...!

scratchycat
03-13-2011, 09:07 AM
I just looked this character up online because Pay Pal was mentioned. One of his crazied assed sites has him driveling (frankly he sounds like he has more loose screws than a 58 Ford) about Pay Pal for some 14 pages. He even claims to be former employee. I then called the Fraud Department of Pay Pal and just got off the phone with them. I explained the reason for the call, gave them his name and website and sent them emails of the links I had and screen shots and read them parts of them to the rep. He is promoting a huge scam and using Pay Pay in his b.s. claims to promote and advertise his scam. He even has screen shots from Pay Pay, is making fraudulent claims about Pay Pay, claims to have written software for them and is slandering them all over the internet. I was then turned over to a Supervisor who was actually speechless when she heard what I was saying and read the emails and went to one of his sites. We have used Pay Pal for many years and never had an issue with them once. I consider them to be an upstanding and excellent pay system. One of the reasons that I respect them, is that they will not let any scammer use their services. Ever. They provide security and sincerely care about protecting consumers and their clients. The Supervisor is turning the info over to their legal department immediately and could not thank me enough for providing them with this info and even offered to send me some PayPal Bucks. (Ebay here we come lol) Should be interesting to see what happens.

Thanks a lot ALA!! I have used PayPal for many years and never had a problem either. I am glad you knew how to report this and actually get some action started on it.

scratchycat
03-13-2011, 09:13 AM
I loved this statement: "We are considering in the future to obtain approval from PayPal, but that requires some extra paper work and legal issues." Good luck there, pal. lol Right there he stating they have legal issues. After reading that, how do the alarms not go off for people? Not to mention, "Alliance funds is not a registered business at this point of time." Good grief. And idiots just keep sending them money irregardless. (shakes head) One fool even thanked him for the explaination and the fast reply. He deserves to get ripped off.

Then this moron posts what he made:

You have received a payment to your account U4XXXXXX:
Date: 2011-01-02 04:07:38
Batch: 54436931
From Account: u2755786
Amount: $1.00
Memo: Withdraw to ELREBEL from alliancefunds.net
Thank you.

He goes through all this to make literally $1.00??? Are you kidding me?

This is what just gets me when people pay $49 to join something and then say they just made $1.00! Most of the time as in this case it just shows up in a fake account and you have to build up to xnumber of dollars before they pay out. Which likely is not going to happen. Yet these places are thriving off people willing to take chances.

A Life Aloft
03-13-2011, 12:30 PM
LOL! ALA, if he actually "made" a dollar it might be notable, but he has only received back a percentage of what he has deposited. He ain't "made" sh*t...!That is the ironic and funniest part of all. Here you go, let us hold on to your money with no interest whatsoever, let alone growth and then in a month or 45 days, we'll let you have an entire dollar of it back! ROTFL! Then these people jump up and down, get so excited and post how happy they are, how great the program is and brag about getting their one dollar back! If you made up a scenario like this and told it to people, they would never believe you. And yet, here it is! Talk about robbing Peter to pay Paul. Did their parents never teach them a damn thing when they were children? So much for common sense. Sheeesh!

A Life Aloft
03-13-2011, 01:28 PM
I think in a few years, psychs will probably find there's a certain element of S & M involved in the HYIP ponzi "scene":

"Than you, thank you, admin for only ripping me off for half my money. You really ARE an honest admin. Beat me, whip me and beat me some more. I LOVE when you hurt me"I think what bothers me the most in all MLMs (the recruiting aspects) is the "psychology" used to gain recruits and the cult like behavior of so many MLMs, especially the religious theme based MLMs. I posted extensively here about this: http://www.realscam.com/f9/mlms-cults-129/

All MLM operations have one thing in common. At least monthly or biweekly, usually weekly meetings and rah rah phone calls of regional distributors, where as many people gather as the organization can muster. And what a party is being held - reminding you of a lively church or happy family meetings. A lot of cheering - success stories are being told - tales of how much money is and can be made, the product is being hyped - people stand up and give their testimonial (by the way - it is a very common practice to find some of those who give testimonials traveling from meeting to meeting to give them in whatever form they are needed…)

And all of that - the atmosphere loaded with confidence, promises of a better future and health (for health realted products) creates a synergy effect, that is hard to resist - especially, when some of those around you are friends and neighbors, that you know and trust. People have an innate desire to feel needed, welcomed and like they belong. MLMs play right into these needs. They do it every single time and at every single opportunity. And then comes in play something that all the MLM marketers calculate and bank on - the power of suggestion.

These events and procedures do not by accident resemble the way cult work and sort of brainwash their followers. People are getting conditioned, made immune against criticism - for they have witnessed people walk - who were in the wheelchair, or could move, where they couldn’t before! They listen to "testimonies" of people who were on the verge of or were bankrupt, living with a mountain of bills and debts, been laid off from their jobs and in financial collapse, hopeless and worn out, only to be saved by this marvelous MLM floportunity. If they then are Christians and believe in God and "sincerely" want to help you, how can they not be trusted? No true Christian would rip you off would they?

How powerful and suggestive is all of this?

What they don't know, is that there are professionals testimonial providers under them, they don’t realize, that the suggestive power of all of that makes them even believe that they feel better themselves. They feel the energy boost, short lived as it is, the power and control and the euphoria from taking a sip of the miracle fruit juice - so it all must be true. They don't see past the lies, past the phoniness of the product, past the no real proof of income claims, none of it. This is where the phrase the "drinking of the Kool Aid" (reminds me of Jim Jones) came into use.

And they take this energy that they have been empowered with by those meetings and bring it in into their conversations with potential prospects, and if you believe in a thing and use it yourself it’s much easier to convince someone, as if you’re just selling something. After all, this product and this company "will change your life." So you sign up and buy these products, convinced that you will have no problem in selling not only the marvelous products but also the floportunity to your friends, co-workers and family.

Are these convinced distributors/members soley to blame? No, not entirely. They are as much being deceived on so many levels as all potential prospects are and will be. It is the MLM system and it’s makers, that without morals, ethics or a conscience and with the full knowledge on the reality of the product and the compensation plan, that exploit the people under them.

A combination of endorphins, mass suggestion, mass enthusiasm, the fillfulling of needs on a psychological and emotional level, paired with false and real testimonials (from those at the top- raking on the real monies) and the prospect of huge amounts of money coming your way along for better health or a better life and voilà, you have a new recruit!

Then you are told how cheap it is to join! Only a small monthly fee and you are given the opportunity to then pay more fees monthly for advertising and a cookie cutter website, given to all the members. For additional monies you can buy expensive promo materials like fancy folders, containing a brochure, DVD, Video CD etc. to promote the product and cheap looking but over priced "business" cards. You are urged to buy literature on how to succeed, encouraged to visit quite expensive training sessions, motivational tapes and books often written and recorded by the owners/founders and the leaders or the shills they bring in to rah rah up the troops (think Lenny here) and last but not least to sign themselves and the people in their downline up for Automatic Shipping, so that they will receive their products automatically, regardless, whether they need it or not.

In truth, while the phony, over hyped, over priced, worthless products are promoted and demonstrated and touted, they are merely the hook. The real focus and emphasis and purpose is to recruit new distributors and create a downline and then get those recruits to do the same. So go forth into the world and bring in more suckers, aaahhhhh.....recruits into the fold, brother!

Now, you are really living the dream!

mumei101
03-13-2011, 01:59 PM
ALA - good post, one of my future questions was going to focus on the psychology of pyramids, but now no need :)
P.S. I though the "drinking the Kool Aid" phrase was related to the cult-associated suicides where members would blindly drink Kool-Aid laced with some lethal drug (arsenic or cyanide or something) emphasising blind and misplaced faith in some phoney belief - i.e. perfectly describing many Ponzi/Pyamid members...

Question for you all: What tactics do pyramids/ponzis use to extend their lifespan?

Again, thanks for the posts.
Regards


Edit: Just googled Jim Jones and realised who he was, so I guess we were both right. Doh.

A Life Aloft
03-13-2011, 03:20 PM
What I have commonly seen, is that MLMs will frequently change (they call it improving) their comp plans, (even though they have claimed that their plans will never change, are written in stone and you are guaranteed this) the levels, and sometimes they will change or add additional products and or services. They may even bring in new heavy hitters to recruit and promote as other leaders move on. You may even see them restructuring those at the top who run the scams. No explaination is given as to why so and so left, just a huge amount of PR and hype about the new incoming player. They will claim this as being "expansion" when it is nothing more than to keep beating the same horse. They try to re-invent themselves with new terms and convince the members that this is all in their "plan" and evolution and growth to make them even more successful and give them more opportunities to move up the chain and earn more money. They will often encourage the members to join in on more conference/training calls and rah rah meetings. They may even start holding conventions and they advise the members to bring new recruits along with them and share the nightmare....er....I mean dream.

They will most often start the pressure on the current members to squeeze them for results. They will make entire phone calls and presentations about not listeninng to reality.....errr...I mean the dreamstealers and the naysayers. They will try to separate you from even the advice of your family (again much like a cult) and tell you that that often the people who love you the most, are the very people who will keep you from reaching the stars. I actually have seen that specific phrase used. They will tell you as a member that there are no limitations on how far you can succeed with this new product or improved comp plan. They will use every means psychologically and emotionally to make you feel like it is you who are failing and not their crappy floportunity. They will insist that you have nothing to fear and that you step out of your comfort zone. In otjher words leave behind the last vestiges of any common sense and critical thinking that you may still have left. This often requires you to spend even more money on their wonderful floportunity. They will bring in more well paid "success coaches" to write about on their website and speak about the program and it's products and reassure you that they are truly "there for you". When you have run out of warm marks, they will promote lead generation programs and other means of advertising on the net. Again, all with a price. They will bring in these "coaches" to reveal their most revered, "secrects for sucess". They will encourage you to purchase even more products and to prove your belief in them. In otherwords, they milk the hell out of the members in several ways. They will even tell you how to manage your time and how many people to approach daily with the program. They will tout the wonders of successful MLMers (for some reason it is always Donald Trump and that phony lying little weasel ******* Robert Kiyosaki) and promise that you can be exactly like them. They will tell you to start a blog, use Twitter, use Facebook, put up ads everywhere, even the grocery store and the laundromat.

Can you imagine anyone in the real world of business doing these things? Yet, this is exactly what all MLMs will encourage you to do. That and approach people in your church, your gym, your family reunions and more. I actually read on YTB's facebook of one guy (and he was serious) that he would be approaching people at a family member's funeral! Seriously! I amost fell outta my chair. He was not kidding either. These MLM's will often have your sponsor start hounding you on a weekly basis. They will post all kinds of psuedo religious and psycholigical quotes on "success' on their website. They may even start giving you "to do" lists. They will give you a re-fresher course on why theirproduct or service is the best one out there and never seen before and that you tryuly have the opportunity of a lifetime, that you do own your own business, your are the boss and in complete control, (even though you own nothing, have nothing viable that anyone with half a brain wants and you are being constantly manipulated to death) you will never need another "job" in your life, you have total security and a financially secure future at your fingertips and the world is really your tiny oyster.

For example, I like to call Nu-Skin the MLM that just refuses to lay the hell down and die! lol This flopportunity has re-invented itself a half a dozen times, hit the skids and come back. They created seprate divisions that were touted like unique companies such as IDN, QIQ Connections, Big Planet, Pharmanex, Pharmanex Medical, and Photomax. They all went nowhere. Now, they are recycling back again to their old tried and true Skin Care and Anti Aging crap. If you cannot bring in at least 8 t 10 other members who will sell their asses off, you will never make any real money in this venture, but you will have a ton of product sitting in your garage to give Grandma and your Aunt for Christmas. Not only do you have to be concerned with your downline, but the uplines in this company are mostly just as weak, ever changing and tenuous. If Nuskin's product are so wonderful, prived correctly, and so unique, why are they not sold in retail establishments and only through MLM? Have they succeed? Since they went to Asia, you betcha. In fact where sales are lagging in Canada, North and Latin America, they are soaring in Asia. Nuskin (NUS) is a publicly traded company in the New York Stock Exchange, but this has nothing to do with the scamming and marketing tactics used by the network multi-level marketers just to get their downlines’ money. And if you read the contract the upline has the downline sign, it states there that Nuskin is not liable for whatever transaction these other parties agree to. A read of their financials and what their distrubutors actually earn and the turnover of distributors reveals much.

From one former distributor who was at one time an actual leader:

"I was been a Nu Skin distributor for years and discovered that it takes about 999 people before you find one who will succeed, which translates to one-tenth-of-a-percent! NOT a good margin.
Most of us leaders either started very early and we had money, as without these two there is NO WAY you can make it in MLM and that includes Nu Skin. Nu Skin as a company is good….for the owners NOT for the distributors as most of them lose. Read Jon Taylors book Nu Skin’s Naughty numbers to learn the truth. Do NOT join Nu Skin if you are looking for a home based business and you are not able to ”buy” leaders to join and ”premarket” new markets as that is what it takes to succeed…really it does. It even took me years to see the deceptive reality of the math. So, for every successful Hawaiian Blue Diamond Nu Skin distributor it took thousands to lose their hide! Don’t take my word for it, just look it up. The truth about MLM, or multi-level marketing, based on solid research and world-wide feedback (http://www.mlm-thetruth.com)
This whole MLM sales deal is based on the LDS method of prosylation…it is a numbers game. The LDS cult sells you a one way ticket to the illusionary ”Kingdom of Heaven” while Nu Skin sells you a one way ticket to the land of Unobtainable Wealth in the Land of Greed… Do you own research and if you can find fault with what I say I love to hear it because I even bet for a thousand bucks that you can not find better success rates than 0.01% Stay away!"

littleroundman
03-14-2011, 01:33 AM
But the most important factor in a program's success are the promoters, people with long e-mail lists who move from program to program bringing their "downlines" with them. As time has gone on the more important "referral commissions" have become. These programs survive always and only by attracting fresh cash so it makes sense that the biggest payoffs are to the best recruiters. Club Asteria is a perfect example, someone with a maxed out "Asterio balance" can earn no more than $400/month (and actually rather less than that) but there's a commission of near 50% on all monthly dues paid in by people you directly recruit. This is before you add in the elaborate "comp plan" for any network you build.

I would go even further.

I firmly believe that Patrick Prettys' "steroidal puppeteers" are largely responsible for, and, in fact, drive the "next big thing" phenomena.

I am in no doubt there exists on todays' 'net a vast, loosely co ordinated but highly effective underground HYIP industry sub culture.

It is a relatively simple matter for puppetmasters to anoint a "next big thing" and then mobilize vast numbers of shills tasked with making it so.

Does anyone really believe Andy Bowdoin, Charis Johnson, Bryan Marsden and the CEP boys somehow became overnight geniuses or that their programs were any different than a squillion others ???