PDA

View Full Version : Ponzi scheme shakes Africa's Benin



littleroundman
09-01-2010, 11:16 PM
Ponzi scheme shakes Africa's Benin
Virgile Ahissou and Artis Henderson, AAP
September 2, 2010, 11:12 am

More than 100,000 people in the tiny West African nation of Benin have lost their savings in a Ponzi scheme run by a now-defunct company that appeared to be publicly endorsed by the country's president.

The government said in a statement in August that more than 130,000 people gave their savings to Investment Consultancy and Computering Services. Together they lost more than $US130 million ($A142.87 million), the statement said.


The corporation was registered as a nonprofit computer service company and was operating illegally as a banking institution. ICC was forced to close on July 1, and more than a dozen of its employees were jailed.

But the reverberations have echoed to the top of Benin's power pyramid and now threaten President Boni Yayi, who appeared on television with ICC managers.
Television news shows showed Yayi and other top government officials posing alongside the managers of the investment firm. The images were reproduced on T-shirts. While investors interpreted Yayi's presence as an endorsement, the president did not officially speak in favour of ICC during the appearances.

In this country of 8.7 million people, the average yearly income hovers at $US750 ($A824). Many lost months to years of savings in the scam.

Electrician Lambert Saizonou, 40, planned to use his investment earnings to buy his first house. Now he has lost all of his savings. Jobs are scarce, and Saizonou worries it will take years to save to buy a home for his family.
"They promised me an interest rate of 200 per cent," he said. "Now I must start saving again, little by little."

Herman Menton, a 32-year-old company manager, lost nearly $US1500 after investing in ICC for a year. Like many of ICC's investors, Menton was referred to the company by friends who had already invested and lured him with the promise of high interest rates.

Perhaps the greatest swindle, some say, is the government's role in the investmentcompany. Many victims say the sight of government officials in the ads reassured them their money would be safe.
"We saw them on television," said Pierre Dossa, a mechanic who lost his savings. "How could we not believe in it?"

Since the announcement that ICC's activities were fraudulent, Yayi has swept his administration of those associated with the company. In July, he fired Armand Zinzindohoue, the minister of the interior, and Chief Prosecutor Georges Constant Amoussou.

More than a dozen individuals connected to ICC have been jailed, including the president's cousin and two of the company's top managers.
But some members of Benin's National Assembly say these measures do not go far enough. They accuse Yayi of being complicit in ICC's corrupt activities, and they have called for his impeachment.

But the government of Benin denies any wrongdoing. "This is a private affair between a business and its clients," said spokesman Candide Azanai. "Because the people have been robbed, the government is intervening for the security of its citizens."

An investigative commission has been established, and the government is seeking to retrieve funds from ICC, even seizing personal items such as cars and villas from the company's managers. Victims will be reimbursed according to how much money is recovered, according to Azanai.

ICC managers could not be reached for comment, as the company no longer exists and many executives are in jail.

Ponzi scheme shakes Africa's Benin - The West Australian (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/world/7869474/ponzi-scheme-shakes-africas-benin/)

iamwil
09-02-2010, 07:22 AM
"They promised me an interest rate of 200 per cent," he said. "Now I must start saving again, little by little."


Doesn't that just say it all? All these things operate on greed.

littleroundman
09-02-2010, 10:00 AM
"They promised me an interest rate of 200 per cent," he said. "Now I must start saving again, little by little."


Doesn't that just say it all? All these things operate on greed.

Yeah,

kinda makes one glad one doesn't live in a third world country where the average annual income is USD$750.00 being targeted by sophisticated criminals, doesn't it ???

You pseudo-Christian supercilious prick.

You wouldn't know the difference between greed and desperation, as***e.

True colors, "iamwil" true colors.

iamwil
09-02-2010, 12:33 PM
Yeah,

kinda makes one glad one doesn't live in a third world country where the average annual income is USD$750.00 being targeted by sophisticated criminals, doesn't it ???

You pseudo-Christian supercilious prick.

You wouldn't know the difference between greed and desperation, as***e.

True colors, "iamwil" true colors. When $750 allows you to live...raise a family...tis a different culture...

But similar factors, like here where the lure of high returns abled Madoff to take folks entire savings...tis greed at work and folks playing off greed.

And yes, I am glad I was not born into a third world country...however there are many that were and look at us and laugh.

I've met a number of PCVs who did their stint in Benin, my sister among them, I'm quite familiar with their living conditions.

You tell me, without greed would any ponzi scheme work?

Well without greed or gov't intervention which requires participation like Social Security.

Seriously?
09-02-2010, 05:23 PM
No, wil, this is not simple greed on the part of the people who invested. This says it all

Perhaps the greatest swindle, some say, is the government's role in the investmentcompany. Many victims say the sight of government officials in the ads reassured them their money would be safe.
"We saw them on television," said Pierre Dossa, a mechanic who lost his savings. "How could we not believe in it?"
These are people who have little education and no experience in investing. They saw government officials with the company officials. Why would they think that a government official would even be in the same room with someone who was not on the up and up?

Carpe diem? Well, technically yes, morally, no.

WishfulThinking
09-02-2010, 06:13 PM
Carpe diem? Well, technically yes, morally, no.

It is hard to see how anyone with above zero intelligence can compare the victims of a ponzi fraud perpetrated on an uneducated, poor third world population with those in a modern society with good information, education and communication systems.

Iamwil, ponzis are frauds and they are often carried out by some very effective fraudsters. This isn't an argument about the legality or morality of an MLM, it's a report about a massive crime with victims. Your response is callous and, if as you say, you understand how a country like Benin operates, it is also repugnant.

Unsaved Trash
09-02-2010, 10:11 PM
It is hard to see how anyone with above zero intelligence can compare the victims of a ponzi fraud perpetrated on an uneducated, poor third world population with those in a modern society with good information, education and communication systems.

Iamwil, ponzis are frauds and they are often carried out by some very effective fraudsters. This isn't an argument about the legality or morality of an MLM, it's a report about a massive crime with victims. Your response is callous and, if as you say, you understand how a country like Benin operates, it is also repugnant.

Since Wil won't address any of the other questions posed to him on the older threads where he was called out (par for the course and history continues to repeat itself), he found a new one to comment on then will eventually abandon. Of course he's a victim himself of his cactus juice MLM and has lost money for 11 years. But hey, he can't even figure that one out. Can we all have a big DUH moment here?

iamwil
09-03-2010, 07:55 AM
These are people who have little education and no experience in investing. They saw government officials with the company officials. Why would they think that a government official would even be in the same room with someone who was not on the up and up? Time will tell how many were involved the estimates of the money and number swindled have been bouncing around in the past few articles. But what looks like happenned was the President was in a photo with the company during one of their events where they were funding something (they gave enough money to orphanages, hospitals, good causes to cement their lies). And then the ponzi used that picture in their advertising...the support of the gov't as I read was implied, but not actual.

It is hard to see how anyone with above zero intelligence can compare the victims of a ponzi fraud perpetrated on an uneducated, poor third world population with those in a modern society with good information, education and communication systems.

Iamwil, ponzis are frauds and they are often carried out by some very effective fraudsters. This isn't an argument about the legality or morality of an MLM, it's a report about a massive crime with victims. Your response is callous and, if as you say, you understand how a country like Benin operates, it is also repugnant.Ask anyone, they'll tell you I have zero intelligence. When I guy comes on and is quoted that he anticipated a 200% return on his investment so he could use it as a downpayment on a house, I give him a little credit for knowing what that is, but cannot take out the greed. I can ask 20 people on the street in our educated good old USA if they invested $10 and got a 200% return on their investment how much would they have...I'd get plenty of blank stares and confused individuals.

When they say the average income is $750 a year...that is because they have a huge population that live on a hundred dollars a year, with their four wives and family...

I don't know all about Benin...just know some folks that have lived there...and wouldn't think of categorizing the population as uneducated. Of course I don't think anyone who lives off the land, and feeds and takes care of his family as uneducated, even if he can't read or write. Toss a PHD out in his world and see how long they live.

I still say greed plays a lot... and do you think the people in this city live at $750 a year?

http://www.davidjackson.info/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/togo20benin20cotonou7zq.jpg

WishfulThinking
09-03-2010, 09:25 AM
Iamwil

It looks as if you have an overwhelming need to be proved right, irrespective of something as irrelvant as the facts.

Benin may not be the worst example of an African economy, but it sure ain't a good one.

Try this couple of quotes (only Wikepedia, but there are many other places to corroborate them)

The economy of Benin remains underdeveloped and dependent on subsistence agriculture and cotton.

Although trade unions in Benin represent up to 75% of the formal workforce, the large informal economy has been noted by the International Trade Union Confederation (ITCU) to contain ongoing problems, including a lack of women's wage equality, the use of child labour, and the continuing issue of forced labour

Uneducated has more to do with being uninformed than Stupid. You are right, the overage joe on the street in the US probably has no idea what a good and realistic rate of return on investment should be and couldnt tell you what percentage the banks pay. It's called greed when you KNOW that the percentage is crazy. Reading and writing are very useful tools when it comes to making investment decisions, and whilst it's lack does not detract from a human being's worth, it sure makes it hard to follow investment returns.

Anyway, you are talking about a criminal fraud which "appeared" to be backed by the Government in a third world country, so your comments about the US have very little relevance. Its one thing to be politically correct, its just plain dumb to try to pretend that you are comparing like with like.

Seriously?
09-03-2010, 11:43 AM
As Wishful indicated, you cannot possibly compare "the man on the street" in the US and "the man on the street" in a third world country like Benin. Being stupid and being uneducated is not the same. You are comparing apples and oranges.

WishfulThinking
09-03-2010, 01:37 PM
You are comparing apples and oranges.

and are also undermining the gravity of the situation caused by a ponzi operation in Benin.

People were conned and many have lost their life savings. Isn't that enough for you?

iamwil
09-03-2010, 03:26 PM
and are also undermining the gravity of the situation caused by a ponzi operation in Benin.

People were conned and many have lost their life savings. Isn't that enough for you?
OK, I give up. My contention is that without greed Ponzi schemes can not and will not work (unless they are run by a gov't like social security and taken out of our income before we see it.)

You guys are indicating Ponzi schemes works without greed...please tell me how.

Of course I have empathy for folks that lose money... No, not quite true...the greedy ones, the ones that know they are getting over, know there is something fishy yet choose to participate...

With Madoff they talked of folks who lost millions...but did they lose millions or did they put in some amount and keep parlaying it? Like the Enron secretary who lost 300,000 after 8 years of work... she didn't put 300,000 in her 401k...they showed the math...it was all bogus money that she had 'accumulated' during the run up and divisions of the stock during the fiasco...yes she lost her $22,000 investment...I feel sorry for her about that...but she didn't lose 300k, that was all illegal monies.

So now I don't know, should I not feel sorry for the secretary at all because she was educated and not in a third world country? Are we supposed to have different empathy based on where and how they live?

I mean we obviously do? We Americans contributed heavily to Haiti and have completely ignored (in comparison) Pakistan. Why is that? Are the 3rd world Paki's not worth helping since they are mostly Muslim? Why do we have less concern for 4 million homeless, than 1 million homeless?

Or why should I show more concern over a hundred thousand people, who lost 1,000 in savings vs. 4 million people who lost their homes and farms?

3% of one population homeless by a flood of biblical proportions or 2% of another population who willingly yet unwittingly participated in robbery of their own savings.

I feel for them both...but feel more for one than the other...my bad.

Seriously?
09-03-2010, 05:47 PM
Are we supposed to have different empathy based on where and how they live?
In a way, yes. A farmer in Africa with no education and little access to investment information is approached by someone promising that they can invest their money and give them a return. This person is apparently educated and shows the farmer they have connections in the government by showing the farmer pictures. The farmer has never heard of Ponzi schemes and probably doesn't even have a bank account, much less access to the internet, TV, or a daily newspaper. The educated person says "trust me". Yes, I feel sorry for the farmer. He didn't have a chance.

The secretary, on the other hand, has at least a high school education, has a bank account, has access to the internet, 300 channels of TV (she's not watching Suze Orman, obviously), daily news via newspaper where Ponzi schemes are discussed fairly often. If she is that clueless in today's society here in the US, then while I regret she lost her investment I cannot feel sorry for her considering she didn't do her (to quote MLMers) "due diligence".

Again, comparing apples and oranges. I'm not even going to try to understand how Haiti and Pakistan fit into this discussion.

Blue Wolf
09-03-2010, 06:01 PM
You guys are indicating Ponzi schemes works without greed...please tell me how.

You seem confused, Wil.

Some people don't even know they're participating in a ponzi scheme. You brought up Madoff and his "high returns". But who thought Madoff was running a ponzi scheme? The victims didn't know.

The rate of return that Madoff offered was around 10%. Not really that high, in my opinion.

My 401k retirement fund is with Vanguard. The annual rate of return is 12.7%.

The people investing with Madoff were getting less than I get with my 401k. And his 10% returns were fake.

Are people who want a 10% return on their money really greedy?

I don't think so.


Of course he's a victim himself of his cactus juice MLM and has lost money for 11 years. But hey, he can't even figure that one out.

But here's what happens:

They'll defend their ponzi schemes by saying that they're participating because they really, really, really LOVE the products.

That's why they pay so much for all the stuff.

It's not about greed. It's about love.

littleroundman
09-03-2010, 08:40 PM
iamwil" is simply employing his "Christian" first world psychic skills to the problem.

It's an amazing talent, really.

The story alleges that over 100,000 people from a third world country fell victim to the fraud, but "wil" using his amazing skills is able to deduce that they were driven by greed.

And he can provide further proof of his "knowingness" abilities by revealing his sister once visited Benin.

I think his abilities are commonly known as "revealing ones' true colors" in some circles.

WishfulThinking
09-05-2010, 11:08 AM
Here's an interesting article about the Benin ponzi scam, from the New York Times. Not only has the ICC scam caused damage to hundreds of thousands of families in Benin, but its consequences may well shake the country's political stability.

So much for ponzi schemes being harmless.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/19/world/africa/19benin.html

iamwil
09-07-2010, 07:15 AM
In a way, yes. A farmer in Africa with no education and little access to investment information is approached by someone promising that they can invest their money and give them a return. This person is apparently educated and shows the farmer they have connections in the government by showing the farmer pictures. The farmer has never heard of Ponzi schemes and probably doesn't even have a bank account, much less access to the internet, TV, or a daily newspaper. The educated person says "trust me". Yes, I feel sorry for the farmer. He didn't have a chance.

The secretary, on the other hand, has at least a high school education, has a bank account, has access to the internet, 300 channels of TV (she's not watching Suze Orman, obviously), daily news via newspaper where Ponzi schemes are discussed fairly often. If she is that clueless in today's society here in the US, then while I regret she lost her investment I cannot feel sorry for her considering she didn't do her (to quote MLMers) "due diligence".

Again, comparing apples and oranges. I think we will find it apples and apples. I think we'll find that most of the participants were from the cities, and more educated than your poor farmer, and also with a much higher salary than the $750 a year...


Some people don't even know they're participating in a ponzi scheme. You brought up Madoff and his "high returns". But who thought Madoff was running a ponzi scheme? The victims didn't know. Where did I say people 'knew' they were involved in a Ponzi scheme? I simply said that without 'Greed' greed for unrealistic returns, a ponzi scheme can't operate.




So much for ponzi schemes being harmless.
[/url] And who thinks Ponzi schemes are harmless??

littleroundman
09-07-2010, 09:59 AM
I simply said that without 'Greed' greed for unrealistic returns, a ponzi scheme can't operate.


Geez, you can't help yourself, can you.

You'd rather be "right" than virtually anything else, wouldn't you ????

Are you saying a ponzi scheme cannot operate without giving "unreasonable returns" ????

So, a fraud offering 1 or 2 percentage points over the "norm" cannot operate, is that your reasoning ???

Here's a tip for you, free and gratis, Mr non judgmental "Christian"

Just admit you made a racist, thoughtless and judgmental comment involving the behavior of over 130,000 people who live in circumstances so far removed from your Western understanding as to be incomprehensible, whether or not your sister was once there.

What's worse, you've managed to further reinforce the depth of your ignorance even further by attempting to rationalize and justify your original comments.

Mea Culpa, "wil" Mea Culpa

It's easy, "iamwil" you can do it.

What's more, you'll feel better for it.

A Life Aloft
09-07-2010, 10:08 AM
You know Willy, you really need to just shut the hell up. The greed in Ponzi schemes and MLMs comes more from the purveyors of these schemes than it does from the participants. That is where the real greed is, pal. You simply cannot believe that these people are victims, because you yourself promote and believe and and rip off people with the worthless, overpriced garbage that is peddled by the MLM that you are in.

You try and insist that the average income for this country is not what is stated, yet it certainly is. I found several credible sources on the net confirming this. I also found sources confirming the lack of education in this country and that most of the people do not live in the cities and even the ones that do, live in dire poverty. Again, you try to justify what has happened to these people to whitewash your own behavior. I suppose that is the only way yopu can look in a mirror and sleep at night.

You are a disgrace as a human being. You claim your sister was there. Another one of your continued bullshit stories and lies.....much like your phony job, your phony commute, your phony office and your phony vacation. You claim to believe in God....you rant on over at Scam, about making the world a better place and all the other kumbaya b.s. that you drool about....yet it's all just bullshit and lies. You don't walk the walk. You spout crap that you think will make you look better than the person that you really are. You have no credibility. But more and worse than that, you have no heart, no soul, no courage, no conscience, no morals, no values and you cannot even distinguish the diference between right and wrong. You are simply, a heartless *******.

The savings of more than 100,000 people in Benin have been lost in a pyramid scheme, prompting calls for the President of the tiny West African country to be impeached after he appeared to endorse the investment scam.

Thousands of families put money into Investment Consultancy and Computering Services (ICC) as word spread of its ability to offer returns of between 50 per and 200 per cent to investors while it used its apparently bottomless funds to finance health clinics, feed orphans and make large donations to Christian groups.

But the dream of quick wealth evaporated last month when ICC was forced to close, leaving behind it 130,000 people who had invested their savings and losses of about $130m (£84m) in a country where most subsist on $2 a day. Many families had pooled their investments, meaning that up to a quarter of the nine-million strong population has been directly affected by the scam.

Lambert Saizonou, 40, an electrician, was typical of many victims, having poured his savings into the Ponzi scheme in the hope that he could buy his first house. He said: "They promised me an interest rate of 200 per cent. Now I must start saving again, little by little."

Anger against the authorities, who at best failed to stop ICC trading when it was not registered as a bank and at worst turned a blind eye to a fraud into which thousands of people poured their life savings, coalesced this week into a vote by more than half of Benin's MPs calling for President Boni Yayi to face impeachment proceedings.

Mr Yayi, a former development banker elected in 2006 on an anti-corruption ticket, was seen on television news bulletins posing alongside other government officials with managers of the investment company. The images were reproduced on T-shirts and in advertisements, prompting many investors to interpret the presence of the President as an endorsement.

Adrien Houngbedji, a leading opposition politician, told the Associated Press: "We have elected a chief of state to protect the people. He has betrayed the confidence placed in him by the people, and he should be prosecuted before the high court of justice."

ICC officials relied on word of mouth to attract clients, who were met by consultants promising attractive returns. Guy Akplogan, the company's director, said in a television interview earlier this year: "We are God's workers."

The scandal, which has already prompted street protests in the capital Porto Novo, threatens to cause upheaval in what has been hitherto one of the most stable countries in West Africa, cited approvingly by Western diplomats for its independent parliament, civilian control of the military and comparatively free press.

Mr Yayi has attempted to limit the damage to his administration by cracking down on anyone associated with ICC. Last month he sacked his interior minister, Armand Zinzindohoue, who was accused of providing bodyguards for the company's bosses, and chief prosecutor Georges Constant Amoussou, who was alleged to have blocked an investigation into the scam when concerns were first raised last autumn. About 13 ICC executives have been jailed for offences including fraud.

The government has set up a commission to investigate the scandal and vowed to rake back funds by seizing the assets of ICC managers, including luxury cars and villas. Candide Azani, a government spokesman, denied that Mr Yayi had personally approved ICC, saying: "This is a private affair between a business and its clients. Because the people have been robbed, the government is intervening for the security of its citizens."


Thousands left penniless after collapse of Ponzi scheme - Africa, World - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/thousands-left-penniless-after-collapse-of-ponzi-scheme-2069240.html)

The Republic of Benin is a nation in West Africa. It borders Togo to the west, Nigeria to the east and Burkina Faso and Niger to the north. The country has a population of 8.8 million who are highly dependent on agriculture. A substantial amount of the nation’s income arises from subsistence farming. Some tidbuts from articles about Benin....

Orphan Relief and Rescue was started three and a half years ago by founders Rebecca and Tim Pratt, who were traveling through the country of Benin, West Africa when they came across an orphanage with 109 starving children.
"Becca said, 'This has to be stopped,'" Desmond said.

August 2010:

[B]With a per capita income of US$690 in 2008, Benin ranks in the lower income group of countries. The country has consolidated its democratic process since 1989. The country also engaged since the 1990's in important economic reforms which resulted in a sustained economic performance with an average annual growth rate of 4.4% over 1990-2006. The development outcomes of this positive growth have been limited due in part to the relatively high population growth (3.2%), and in part to the vulnerability of the Beninese economy to external shocks. Poverty has been reduced but remains relatively high. According to the latest estimates in 2007, one-third of Beninese continues to live under the monetary poverty line, while approximately 40% of the population lives in structural (non-monetary) poverty. Access to basic social services has been improved, in particular in the education, water and health sectors. However, achieving MDG targets in some other sectors remain a significant challenge.

Now asshole, you tell me how people who are desperate, naive, uneducated, ignorant and downright broke, are greedy again. You are a despicable piece of slime. You defend those you would steal from the impoverished and then try to justify their deeds.

WishfulThinking
09-07-2010, 10:08 AM
And who thinks Ponzi schemes are harmless??

Try the ponzi founders and promoters for one and their apologists for two. The HYIP boards are full of them.

What is hard to understand is why you are trying to push some of the blame for this particular ponzi onto its participants and not its perpetrators.

The reports on the Benin ICC ponzi make it quite clear that the people who you consider better educated are also supporting their extended (and less educated?) families and the majority participated in order to help them too - not out of greed. For this reason it has so many victims. All this ostensibly supported by a highly popular government in a new democracy.


And better educated and better off are relative terms. It is suspected that the life style of those so called better off people has little or nothing to do with your own.

Are your comments simply due to guilt by association?

A Life Aloft
09-07-2010, 10:10 AM
What is hard to understand is why you are trying to push some of the blame for this particular ponzi onto its participants and not its perpetrators.
Because all liars, thieves and conmen stick together! You failed in MLM? Well you just didn't work hard enough and didn't try hard enough and didn't want it hard enough! You were taken in by a ponzi? It's your own fault! You were greedy! That's what sobs like Willy will tell you.

A Life Aloft
09-07-2010, 10:14 AM
One-third of the population live below the poverty line set by Benin, which suggests that close to 50 percent live below the dollar-a-day international poverty line. The dollar-a-day poverty line is based on the income required to provide the absolute minimum of nutrition, clothing, and shelter. Some 29 percent of children under 5 are malnourished (the figure is 1 percent for the United States), and life expectancy is 55 years (in the United States it is 77 years). Almost all those in poverty are in rural areas, relying on small-scale agriculture for their livelihoods and suffering because of poor land, inadequate rainfall, and not enough income to purchase good seeds, fertilizer, or farm machinery. In 2001 Benin was ranked 157th out of 174 countries in the UN's Human Development Index, which combines measures of income, education, and health provision.

In 1999 there was 1 doctor per 200,000 inhabitants. There was 1 midwife per 12,000 pregnant women, and just 42 percent of the population had access to health care. Several international initiatives to improve these figures have been undertaken. The constitution decrees that primary education is compulsory for all, though fees must be paid. In 1998 there was a 62 percent enrollment in primary age education, though this number dropped to 17 percent in secondary education. In 1993 almost US$1 million was set aside for a scheme for rural girls to be exempted from school fees. In 2002 adult literacy stood at 29 percent.

A Life Aloft
09-07-2010, 10:33 AM
Average home in the interior of Benin taken in 2010:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2016/2309394811_a380e32f6b.jpg

http://www.traveladventures.org/continents/africa/images/cotonou3.jpg

http://www.hobotraveler.com/blogphotos01/203-62-africa-benin-well.jpg

http://www.offthepavedroad.com/archive/scr-Africa006-2.jpg

http://www.offthepavedroad.com/archive/scr-Africa001-2.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.gadling.com/media/2006/02/benin-photo.jpg

Hospital

http://www.instrumentsofmercy.org/images/blog_hospital.jpg

The City

http://www.citypictures.org/data/media/286/Benin-Cotonou-africa.jpg

http://floridapundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/living_in_poverty_in_africa.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.gadling.com/media/2007/12/africa.jpg

All of these pics are from 2010. Now tell us again about the greedy people livong in Benin, you low life cretin.

A Life Aloft
09-07-2010, 10:40 AM
Orphanage in Benin....

http://img.youtube.com/vi/ufyvjevJU0g/0.jpg

The orphanage is located in Lokossa, Benin, West Africa.

The orphanage is currently home to 56 children, all of whom are either orphaned or abandoned.

There on no beds, so they sleep on the ground. Since our visit in 2009 each child and volunteer received a hand-made quilt, which at least gives a bit of padding between them and the ground.

We've also been able to supply mosquito nets! This drastically lowers the chance of the children contracting malaria.

The orphanage was built on public property and in less than 2 years they will be forced to move.
So, since the new cement enclosure is now complete, thanks to many generous donations, we've set a new goal. Before the children are forced to move in 2 years, we are hoping to build a cement dormitory within the new enclosure on the new property. The dormitories at their current location are built with sticks and clay with a thin layer of cement to hold it together. Though the rain has eroded the cement and the rooms leak whenever it rains. Also, it is poorly ventilated, so in the dry season the children sleep with the doors open, and already several children have been bitten by snakes while sleeping and required medical attention. They are also very small rooms, with 14-18 boys and girls sleeping inside.

iamwil
09-07-2010, 10:41 AM
You try and insist that the average income for this country is not what is stated, yet it certainly is.

Now asshole, you tell me how people who are desperate, naive, uneducated, ignorant and downright broke, are greedy again. You are a despicable piece of slime. You defend those you would steal from the impoverished and then try to justify their deeds.Such fun you have, I read the articles. I have yet to state that the average income is any different than what is stated. I believe it to be...but when you have almost 50% at less than a 1.25 a day...when you have 85% at less than the national average...a small middle class that earns substantially more than average, and a smaller wealthy class... The average annual income in the rural areas is under $200 a year...

I could be wrong, but I again think we'll find out the vast majority of the folks taken by this scheme were from the middle and upper class. Not the rural subsistence farmer.

And exactly where am I defending the perpetrators...I give no defence for them. Wherever they are, whoever they are, they should be tried and punished.

And when they do the repayment of recovered funds to the victims, I'd fully support those below the national average being made whole first before the middle and upperclass get any of their funds back...

Of course I'll get blasted for that as well.




What is hard to understand is why you are trying to push some of the blame for this particular ponzi onto its participants and not its perpetrators. Have I ever said the perpetrators were not to be blamed? They deserve to be jailed. I have said I haven't seen any evidence or read any article on collusion by the gov't yet (the criminality of single individuals don't make the gov't, if they did, we'd toss our entire lot in the garbage)...I have seen that the Prez was in a picture, like at a ribbon cutting for an orphanage, or the opening of a hospital...with the gang that set this up. It is understanding that he was there, everything was supposedly on the up and up at the time... and then the 'company' used those pictures to further their venture...(simillar to just about every legit company does)

I don't not feel for the people of Benin.... I continue to ask the same question, without answer...Can a ponzi scheme run without greed??


my head is in the sky, my heart is with my wife and my ass is broke I'm often wondering which of those is true...

iamwil
09-07-2010, 10:48 AM
All of these pics are from 2010. Now tell us again about the greedy people livong in Benin, you low life cretin. So silly you are... I've seen the pictures...I know the poverty. I say again...the vast majority of these people were not NOT victims of this scam. I am waiting for someone to prove me wrong with my contention. It is just a guess on my part. I'm guessing when we see the demographics of these victims, the majority won't be the rural folks or those living below the poverty line, the majority will be those living well above the 'average' income, and not living in your pictures. When I say greed feeds a ponzi scheme, I'm still waiting for your response how it doesn't. Less than one and a half percent of the population participated...I am saying a large percentage of them were greedy....not the other 98.5% that didn't participate!

Hyperbole anyone?

A hint for ya, just so you know, of course they sleep on the dirt floor in the rural areas. They have no AC, no electricity, no doors, no windows, they take every bit of furniture out every day and sweep the dirt floor to sweep out the mites and the bugs, you can't do that with furniture, with a bed in there you would end up with an infestation providing the bugs with homes. You also don't sweep out the geckos, the lizards or the spiders...they are your friends, you sleep with them, they eat the bugs.

A Life Aloft
09-07-2010, 11:01 AM
There is no real upper class in Benin, you ignorant, backpeddling asshole. Not much of a middle class either. THEY ARE ALL POOR by the standards considered by the WHO and the United Nations and other organizations!!! What the hell is it, that you don't get about that, numbnuts? Read the facts on this tiny impoverished country. Educate yourself instead of just running your mouth like you do here and on scam. Oh wait, that would conflict with your ability to lie, deflect, and just make crap up and pretend that you actually know something wouldn't it? It doesn't matter what you "believe", you moron. It matters what the truth is! And the TRUTH is something you have never believed in, your entire life!

You have stated several times on her that the victims of this Ponzi were and are nothing but greedy. You have said nothing negative at all about the instigators of the Ponzi til now when your feet are held to the fire by several posters here and the lightbulb must have finally dawned on your pea brain that you are looking like the heartless, slimy, witless conman that you are. Too late for backpeddling now.

A Ponzi scheme cannot run without the greed of the perpetrators of the Ponzi. Try to get that through your thick imbecilic, uninformed, unlearned skull, you piece of garbage! You make me hurl. You really do!

New York Times:

COTONOU, Benin — It started as a tip between friends, an unheard-of chance to pile up riches in a poor land. How could you go wrong with a good-works company, apparently tight with the government, promising interest of 50 and 100 percent, maybe even higher?

The “investment” was a Ponzi scheme that has ended in disaster for tens of thousands of families on this sliver of the West African coast, wiping out savings, shaking the economy and threatening the president in a nation of nine million that has long been a regional exemplar of stability.

Parliament is demanding his impeachment, high officials have been forced out, and crowds of small savers up and down this Pennsylvania-size land of rich traditions but limited means are demanding restitution.

Benin, birthplace of historic African kingdoms, is on edge. Last week, dozens of fraud victims massed outside the prefecture here in the country’s bustling economic capital. They pressed up against the fence, anxious, angry and insistent that because they had seen pictures of President Thomas Yayi Boni, himself a former banker, alongside officials of the company, called Investment Consultancy and Computering Services, they assumed that it must be legitimate.

Officials estimate that there are between 50,000 and 70,000 victims, with losses of perhaps $180 million — a big sum in a place where most subsist on less than $2 a day and breadwinners have extended families counting on them.

“No family has been left untouched by this,” said Gustave Anani Cassa, a lawyer and former justice minister. More than 4,000 complaints have been brought to his law office alone, he said.

“I’ve lost everything,” said Christian Benhoungbedi, an auto painter waiting outside the prefecture. He said he had invested hundreds of dollars. “I just wanted to help my family.”

Some had waited days outside the yellowing government structure, spending the night under a huge mango tree. Others in the crowd spoke of suicides and deaths from hypertension because of the losses. They brandished official-looking “I.C.C.” contracts with the Statue of Liberty and the stamps and seals that are a staple of West African officialdom. They said they had been enticed by seeing members of the government on television with I.C.C. officials.

Benin’s pride in its domestication of political life — with an absence of military in the streets, a Parliament not in the pocket of the president and a relatively free press — has made the blow even harder. The country has not looked back since a popular uprising effectively overthrew the corrupt military dictatorship 20 years ago, the first such overthrow in post-colonial Africa.

The newspaper kiosks in this chaotic and ramshackle city explode with disputatious publications, and in the mornings yellow-vested drivers of motorcycle-taxis crowd them to read and argue politics. Government, if not always clean, has at least been more or less freely elected. Under Mr. Boni, the country has taken a populist turn, with big bonuses for civil servants blamed in part by the International Monetary Fund for a doubling of the deficit.

Now, victims of the scheme associate Mr. Boni’s government with it. And there is corresponding fear among analysts that citizens will give up on the country’s young democracy and take to the streets as they did in 1989 to get rid of the military dictatorship.

“I’m afraid the people will lose confidence,” said Mathias Hounkpe, a political scientist who works for Parliament, known as the National Assembly.

He estimated that up to a quarter of the working population had been affected. Others agreed that the scheme was worrisome, both economically and politically, with one Western diplomat saying it had a huge impact on short-term discretionary spending.

“This business is a crisis of the regime, something that profoundly implicates the state,” said Roger Gbégnonvi, a former minister in Mr. Boni’s government. “If, behind every saver, there are only 10 people, my dear sir, then the whole country is shaken.”

A majority of lawmakers in Parliament have signed a letter demanding that Mr. Boni be tried before Benin’s Supreme Court for “favoring the activities” of the fraudulent company.

After all, “he’s fired his interior minister” for being involved, said one lawmaker who signed the letter, Kolawolé A. Idji, a former National Assembly president. “That’s not just anybody,” he said, adding “This is an affair of state.”

Officials did not object as I.C.C., while ensnaring its victims, multiplied its good works, helping to finance health clinics, feeding orphanages, digging wells and making donations to the evangelical Christian groups that are important here. Calendars and fabric showing President Boni and one of the company principals circulated.

“We are God’s workers,” the company’s director, Guy Akplogan, said in a television interview this year.

With its do-good reputation set, serious-looking men in dark suits promised secretaries, mechanics, low-level civil servants and others an investment that would deliver nearly half their principal back within three months.

In fact, I.C.C. was operating a classic pyramid scheme: money from one investor was used to pay another. The money was not invested anywhere, but buried in the basements of the company’s principals, said President Boni’s political counselor, Amos Elegbe.

Inside the labyrinthlike presidential compound, Mr. Elegbe dismissed suggestions that Mr. Boni was associated with the fraud, but acknowledged “there were fraudulent interventions on the part of structures of the state.”

He blamed the interior minister, Armand Zinzindohoué, who is accused of furnishing bodyguards to the company’s principals. And he excoriated the principal state prosecutor, Constant Amoussou, whom officials accuse of having blocked an investigation of I.C.C. once the alarm was sounded last fall. He has since been jailed.

“He was in it up to his neck,” Mr. Elegbe said. About 13 of the company’s officials are also in jail, Mr. Elegbe said.

And while the president did grant an audience to I.C.C. officials in May, it hardly meant much, Mr. Elegbe insisted, since he has also met with hundreds of other entities and officials.

Mr. Elegbe, a veteran of several governments here, largely blamed the greed of his compatriots. “I’m surprised to see how far we’ve gone into moral degeneration,” he said. “How could people be so greedy?”

But the crowd outside the prefecture last week was not in a mood to blame itself for the devastating losses.

“I saw the head of I.C.C. Services with members of the government on television,” said Michael Dagah, an electrician who said he invested $2,500. “The government sanctioned it. It seemed serious,” he lamented.

“People told me it was something good, and you would get lots of interest,” said Germaine Dagbo, who said she put in $1,200. “There was a photo of President Yayi in their offices,” she said. Now, “we’re turning everything over to God.”

Do me a favor Willy. Just go kick youirself in the ass, because I can't be there to do it for you. If I could, believe me, I would.

A Life Aloft
09-07-2010, 11:17 AM
One more time, just for you, turd boy...so you think that some poor person who saved and scrimped and worked who knows how many hours a week, for who knows how many years, in a menial job and put his life savings of $1,200 in this ponzi is "rich"?

"I am saying a large percentage of them were greedy."

I am saying that you have no heart, no soul and no brains whatsoever. If you are an example of a "Christian", then God help you. You need help more than the poor people of Benin. You are a lowlife, pathetic, animal.

I answered your question regarding the greed factor. You just chose to ignore it because you don't like the answer and you cannot stand the truth. That is something that all conmen have in common isn't it?

Once again, asshole......The real and true greed in Ponzi schemes and MLMs comes more from the purveyors of these schemes than it does from the participants. That is where the real greed is, pal. You simply cannot believe that these people are victims, because you yourself promote and believe and and rip off people with the worthless, overpriced garbage that is peddled by the MLM that you are in. You both prey on the uneducated, the needy, the poor, the hopeless, the gullible, desperate and those without the tools and circumstances to better themselves and their lives.

That is the truth, and the answer, you Sociopath.

Glibness and Superficial Charm

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Incapacity for Love

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends.

Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

That pretty much sums up your life.

A Life Aloft
09-07-2010, 11:27 AM
MORE than 100,000 people in the tiny West African nation of Benin have lost their savings in a Ponzi scheme run by a now-defunct company that appeared to be publicly endorsed by the country's president.

The government said in August that more than 130,000 people gave their savings to Investment Consultancy and Computering Services. Together they lost more than $US130 million ($142.87 million).

The corporation was registered as a nonprofit computer service company and was operating illegally as a banking institution. ICC was forced to close on July 1, and more than a dozen of its employees were jailed.

But the reverberations have echoed to the top of Benin's power pyramid and now threaten President Boni Yayi, who appeared on television with ICC managers.

Television news shows showed Mr Yayi and other top government officials posing alongside the managers of the investment firm. The images were reproduced on T-shirts. While investors interpreted Mr Yayi's presence as an endorsement, the president did not officially speak in favour of ICC during the appearances.

In this country of 8.7 million people, the average yearly income hovers at $US750 ($824). Many lost
years of savings in the scam.

Electrician Lambert Saizonou, 40, planned to use his investment earnings to buy his first house. Now he has lost all of his savings. Jobs are scarce, and Mr Saizonou worries it will take years to save to buy a home for his family.

"They promised me an interest rate of 200 per cent," he said. "Now I must start saving again, little by little."

Herman Menton, a 32-year-old company manager, lost nearly $US1500 after investing in ICC for a year. Like many of ICC's investors, Mr Menton was referred to the company by friends who had already invested and lured him with the promise of high interest rates.

Perhaps the greatest swindle, some say, is the government's role in the investment company. Many victims say the sight of government officials in the ads reassured them their money would be safe.

"We saw them on television," said Pierre Dossa, a mechanic who lost his savings. "How could we not believe in it?"

Since the announcement that ICC's activities were fraudulent, Mr Yayi has swept his administration of those associated with the company. In July, he fired Armand Zinzindohoue, the minister of the interior, and Chief Prosecutor Georges Constant Amoussou.

More than a dozen individuals connected to ICC have been jailed, including the president's cousin and two of the company's top managers.

But some members of Benin's National Assembly say these measures do not go far enough. They accuse Mr Yayi of being complicit in ICC's corrupt activities, and they have called for his impeachment.

An investigative commission has been established, and the government is seeking to retrieve funds from ICC, even seizing personal items such as luxury cars and villas from the company's managers. WHERE IS THE GREED AGAIN, WILLYBOY??? Victims will be reimbursed according to how much money is recovered, according to Mr Azanai.

ICC managers could not be reached for comment, as the company no longer exists and many executives are in jail.

How many times do you have to read the TRUTH Willyboy before it actually sinks in and you admit that you don't know your arse from a hole in the ground? My guess, is never!

A Life Aloft
09-07-2010, 11:36 AM
Much of the population of Benin simply could not afford to participate and be taken in by this Ponzi, numbnuts. They are poor as dirt! Also most of them live outside the cities (such as they are) in rural areas where the scheme never reached. It was purportrated in the cities for a reason! DUH! Don't let logic and reason get in the way of your lying, unfounded, b.s., ignorant statements though. How stupid are you? Wait.....you've already proven that many times here and on Scam. You really are a shameful excuse for a human being.

iamwil
09-07-2010, 11:38 AM
Tis funny...I am now the perpetrator of the Benin Ponzi scheme....amazing.

Again....

Some proof that folks around the national average wage were the majority of the victims? Not.

Some proof that the gov't (not individuals) was in collusion? Not.

Just ranting and raving and personal vendettas against me? Plenty.

Oh my, he's gonna kick my ass.... all because he's read the same articles I have, all because he can search on the internet and not prove my thesis wrong.

I don't care to be right or wrong, I made an observation.

Can a ponzi scheme work without greedy victims?

Can it?

Should the leaders and perpetrators of the scheme be prosecuted....duh...of course.

Are we seriously here to debate the obvious?

Is it a shame? Duh.

But can a ponzi scheme succeed without greed?

Tis a simple question which has instigated incredibly long responses that have nothing to do with the answer.

iamwil
09-07-2010, 11:39 AM
Oh and pilot...congrats on your skills of spewing venom and cutting and pasting...

top notch.

the classes were worth it...

Maybe you can answer the other question though.

A Life Aloft
09-07-2010, 11:45 AM
For the third and last time, asshole:

The real and true greed in Ponzi schemes and MLMs comes more from the purveyors of these schemes than it does from the participants. That is where the real greed is, pal. You simply cannot believe that these people are victims, because you yourself promote and believe and and rip off people with the worthless, overpriced garbage that is peddled by the MLM that you are in. You both prey on the uneducated, the needy, the poor, the hopeless, the gullible, desperate and those without the tools and circumstances to better themselves and their lives.

Much of the population of Benin simply could not afford to participate and be taken in by this Ponzi, numbnuts. They are poor as dirt! Also most of them live outside the cities (such as they are) in rural areas where the scheme never reached. It was purportrated in the cities for a reason!

I, unlike you actually have a real business to run and a job, so I am going to work to earn a real living, make real income, honestly I must add, and do something that I can be proud of. It's a good thing too, because you make me sick and my stomach is churning just being in the same space as a souless, heartless, low life such as yourself.

You simply cannot and never will accept the TRUTH! That is what comes form a life of delusions, unacknowledged failure, no education, lying, and supporting MLMs.

Blue Wolf
09-07-2010, 01:05 PM
I simply said that without 'Greed' greed for unrealistic returns, a ponzi scheme can't operate.

What "unrealistic" returns?

Is 10% a year too much?

Can you explain to me what your definition of an "unrealistic" return is?

Unsaved Trash
09-07-2010, 01:31 PM
Wil, why don't you answer the other questions that were posed to you on the other threads? You know, about your "job," how you can present proof that the cactus juice was independently tested by labs and proven that it has any benefits, how your "business" in TriVita is worth in excess of $50K, why you're not licensed to be a safety inspector, why the company you work for isn't licensed with the state of MD, you know....basic questions that would reinforce your credibility. You seem to have this strong habit of abandoning any threads that get a little too "tough" with the questions. Why is that?

iamwil
09-07-2010, 01:54 PM
For the third and last time, asshole:

I am going to work to earn a real living, make real income, honestly I must add, and do something that I can be proud of. It's a good thing too, because you make me sick and my stomach is churning just being in the same space as a souless, heartless, low life such as yourself. Mostly in the cities....doh...just what I said...mostly with folks with more income than average....duh.... doesn't take any psychic to figure that out...just you guys are a little slow on the uptake.

Get your blood pressure checked before you fly...


What "unrealistic" returns?

Is 10% a year too much?

Can you explain to me what your definition of an "unrealistic" return is? I wouldn't say so...but promises of 50-200% per year? I'd say generally unrealistic and should be looked into and surely wouldn't risk more than


Wil, why don't you answer the other questions
Why is that? I've answered all the questions repeatedly, and am tired of repeating myself. I answer truthfully you call me a liar. I say I am not making profit, don't live in a mansion, don't drive a mercedes, you all say I am bragging.

You've proven there is no need for me to prove anything to you as you don't have the ability to read or listen. So I'm done with that.

Is this yet to be another thread about me or scam.com? You guys were doing so well, you were almost at 50% of your discussion actually discussing something. But nooooo, gotta attack iamwil again....look he posted pounce, lets make it personal...forget the facts, forget what is being said...

wah...my tummy is upset.

Someone here about to stay on topic and tell me how a ponzi scheme works without greed involved?

For what the 5th time? Of course the perpetrators should be prosecuted...

Unsaved Trash
09-07-2010, 02:46 PM
I've answered all the questions repeatedly, and am tired of repeating myself. I answer truthfully you call me a liar. I say I am not making profit, don't live in a mansion, don't drive a mercedes, you all say I am bragging.

Show me one time that I've called you a liar. Link please.

No, you have not answered any of the questions others and myself have put forth. For example, where is the documentation about the studies on this:

http://www.realscam.com/f16/product-review-trivita-sublingual-b-12-a-260/index2.html#post3585

You never answered it, as a matter of fact, you abandoned the thread again.


You've proven there is no need for me to prove anything to you as you don't have the ability to read or listen. So I'm done with that.

Oh really? I read and I comprehend. You won't answer the questions. Here are a choice few for you.

http://www.realscam.com/f9/why-mlms-never-release-their-financial-statments-255/index2.html#post3595

http://www.realscam.com/f9/why-mlms-never-release-their-financial-statments-255/index2.html#post3595

http://www.realscam.com/f9/why-mlms-never-release-their-financial-statments-255/index2.html#post3558

These are just a few you have skirted. So don't give me any of your regular bullshit about answering the questions. You haven't answered them. You did however report them.


Is this yet to be another thread about me or scam.com? You guys were doing so well, you were almost at 50% of your discussion actually discussing something. But nooooo, gotta attack iamwil again....look he posted pounce, lets make it personal...forget the facts, forget what is being said...

This isn't scam.com. You are whining about questions when you're the one that brings this stuff up. You've made the statements, now back it up. EVERYTHING you've said is in print and easily found. It's not an attack, I'm asking you to verify anything you state and you won't do it. I guess you don't feel you can be questioned regarding your own statements.


wah...my tummy is upset.

As well it should be. That happens when you're cornered and the adrenaline flows. Have you ever witnessed a rat that has been caught in a stricky trap and can't free itself?


Someone here about to stay on topic and tell me how a ponzi scheme works without greed involved?

On topic? You're one to talk. Are you a moderator now? If you go to the threads you abandoned because of pointed questions, then all would be well if you answered anything. Try it sometime.


For what the 5th time? Of course the perpetrators should be prosecuted...

Was that a real answer? Amazing. Care to try a few more?

WishfulThinking
09-07-2010, 03:38 PM
Let's see if its possible to patiently point out a few obvious issues relating to the Benin Ponzi and the comments of iamwil, which are becoming increasingly inane with every post he makes.

Firstly ALL ponzi are the responsibility of the perpetrators and not the victims, irrespective of whether they are "greedy" or not. Any element of greed by a victim just helps the perpetrators along with their greed and intent to steal. Ponzis are illegal and their perpetrators are criminals. PERIOD. We have witnessed a major crime in Benin with many victims - that is the issue.

Secondly One and a Half percent of a population is a massive proportion of that population.. Imagine a ponzi in the US which affected just 1% of its population! No ponzi in the US has ever affected that number of its citizens. Try adding a few zeros after the decimal to get realistic numbers.

Thirdly, given that many of the victims participated in family groups and that many others already support their extended families, the comment by lawyer and former justice minister, Gustave Anani Cassa “No family has been left untouched by this,” makes any argument that only a minor number of people were affect null and void and more than a little stupid.

and Fourthly, what do you describe as greed? the wish to have a second color TV, a bigger car, a holiday in exotic countries, or to feed your family better,or to feed more of your family? Even greed is relative, especially if the motive for making money is to meet necessities of life and not luxuries.

Iamwil, you screwed up when you made your comment about greedy victims when it relates to the Benin Ponzi. So now, instead of defending your error, why dont you just admit you made a careless remark that showed your ignorance of this specific situation and was totally out of place. You could also start to understand that not everyone on this planet lives in the good old US of A, but that the fraudsters amongst the US citizens are not behind in taking advantage of those who have not had the benefit of a US education.

Blue Wolf
09-07-2010, 05:14 PM
I wouldn't say so...but promises of 50-200% per year? I'd say generally unrealistic and should be looked into and surely wouldn't risk more than

So if 10% a year is not unrealistic, I'm wondering why you mentioned Madoff and his "high" returns earlier in this thread. They didn't seem high to me. They were modest, in my opinion.

And I do recall you said this:


My contention is that without greed Ponzi schemes can not and will not work (unless they are run by a gov't like social security and taken out of our income before we see it.)

You guys are indicating Ponzi schemes works without greed...please tell me how.


Okay . . . the Madoff ponzi scheme worked for decades, didn't it?

And it didn't offer unrealistically high returns.

Doesn't that prove to you that ponzi schemes can work without people (i.e. the victims) being really greedy?

Unsaved Trash
09-07-2010, 05:14 PM
You could also start to understand that not everyone on this planet lives in the good old US of A, but that the fraudsters amongst the US citizens are not behind in taking advantage of those who have not had the benefit of a US education.

Excuse me Wishful, but you have to realize that even here in the USA, there are many gullible and stupid idiots that fall for all of the garbage offered out there....MLMs, diet pills, dating sites, get rich quick schemes, penis enlargement pills, uh, and the list goes on. Actually, I don't think it has that much to do with education. I think it has to do with how little common sense the person has in the first place. In the USA, it's very little. Too bad it's spreading worldwide. That's why Ponzis and MLMs are thriving.

WishfulThinking
09-07-2010, 07:04 PM
Unsaved Trash,

Of course you are right in what you say, but it doesn't change the fact that the US has yet to have over 1% of its population involved in a single ponzi scheme, nor any other country in the developed world that I am aware of!

There are probably better words than education, if you refer to it in its strict sense of schooling, Perhaps, it would be better to say, education and ease of access to information. At least we are warned, even if we ignore warnings and common sense and, on top of that, we have easy computer access and English is the most widely spoken language in the world.

Having said that, I know you agree that the situation in Benin just doesnt compare. (and their official language is french)

The point however is that it is notable that, with advent of the internet, sophisticated fraudsters from the developed West, including the USA, are targeting non english speaking and less developed communities, more and more. They know that it is even harder for these people to do their due diligence than it is for the average american and it suits them down to the ground.

Unsaved Trash
09-08-2010, 01:01 AM
Wishful - A better choice of words from me should have been "common sense" rather than education. I do agree with you 100% except I may be a bit more jaded than you concerning MLMs and Ponzi schemes. One thing is for sure, most are going to get screwed.

iamwil
09-08-2010, 07:32 AM
So if 10% a year is not unrealistic, I'm wondering why you mentioned Madoff and his "high" returns earlier in this thread. They didn't seem high to me. They were modest, in my opinion.

And I do recall you said this:



Okay . . . the Madoff ponzi scheme worked for decades, didn't it?

And it didn't offer unrealistically high returns.

Doesn't that prove to you that ponzi schemes can work without people (i.e. the victims) being really greedy?In his 1992, "Avellino and Bienes" interview with The Wall Street Journal, Madoff discussed his supposed methods: In the 1970s, he had placed invested funds in "convertible arbitrage positions in large-cap stocks, with promised investment returns of 18% to 20%",[36] and in 1982, he began using futures contracts on the stock index, and then placed put options on futures during the 1987 stock market crash.[36] A few analysts performing due diligence had been unable to replicate the Madoff fund's past returns using historic price data for U.S. stocks and options on the indexes.[37][38] Barron's raised the possibility that Madoff's returns were most likely due to front running his firm's brokerage clients.[39]




Firstly ALL ponzi are the responsibility of the perpetrators and not the victims, irrespective of whether they are "greedy" or not. Agreed, haven't said otherwise. I have said that I don't believe the scheme will work without greed.
Secondly One and a Half percent of a population is a massive proportion of that population.. Again agreed, hence my saying I am not saying the majority of this impovershed nation is greedy. The majority did not participate.

Thirdly, given that many of the victims participated in family groups and that many others already support their extended families, the comment by lawyer and former justice minister, Gustave Anani Cassa “No family has been left untouched by this,” makes any argument that only a minor number of people were affect null and void and more than a little stupid. Of course no family has been untouched..it is a euphemism, no family was untouched by 9/11 either. In their case their entire economy is affected by the 1.5%. Just as ours would be. I think we'll also find that it wasn't mostly groups that participated, but individuals...and then of course they encouraged their families to join with them...but these are all included in the 1.5% stretch it to average 3 people per investment, which I don't think you can, that leaves 95% of the people not involved directly.


and Fourthly, what do you describe as greed? the wish to have a second color TV, a bigger car, a holiday in exotic countries, or to feed your family better,or to feed more of your family? Even greed is relative, especially if the motive for making money is to meet necessities of life and not luxuries. I don't think many of these folks were buying a second color tv with their returns.


Iamwil, you screwed up when you made your comment about greedy victims when it relates to the Benin Ponzi. So now, instead of defending your error, why dont you just admit you made a careless remark that showed your ignorance of this specific situation and was totally out of place. You could also start to understand that not everyone on this planet lives in the good old US of A, but that the fraudsters amongst the US citizens are not behind in taking advantage of those who have not had the benefit of a US education. I said repeatedly I could be wrong. It is an observation, which since it was me making it you all chose to pounce.

Can a ponzi scheme work without greed? tis a simple question.


except I may be a bit more jaded than you concerning ... Ponzi schemes. One thing is for sure, most are going to get screwed.Surely it isn't 'jaded' to think ponzi schemes awful ventures in which most get screwed.

WishfulThinking
09-08-2010, 10:55 AM
Of course no family has been untouched..it is a euphemism, no family was untouched by 9/11 either

Someone who really doesn' want to understand the way a third world country operates. or has a reading problem.

The comment was NOT a euphemism. The majority of the people in Benin with work support their extended families. One working man with a wage that provides a standard of living that would be unthinkably meagre in the developed west often supports several other families, including those of his wife's family out of his earnings. The knock on effect is economic. It has been widely reported from Benin that the number of families affected were far more than the imediate families of the participating victims.

Equally, it has been reported that some families formed groups to raise the cash to participate.

This argument with Iamwill is a complete waste of time and energy. His need to be right (even if he is wrong) far surpasses his interest or indignation at the damage caused by a sophisticated fraud perpetrated by sophisticated fraudsters on an unsophisticated nation, which will have far reaching effects which may even include the destabilization of its political system.

There is nothing intrinsically greedy in a person investing money in a scheme that has the appearance of a government backed philanthropic organization which promises a rate of return when they neither know it is impossible nor that it is probably illegal.

If it had happened in the US, it might have been a different story, but even then there is still a difference between and greed and ignorance coupled with desperation.

To finish it seems to be a fair comment to say that

The members of this forum condemn the ponzi scheme in Benin and would like to see all its owners, promoters and all those who helped its perpetration in jail and the victims compensated

and if there are any exceptions to this statement, they should be ashamed of themselves.

WishfulThinking
09-08-2010, 11:03 AM
Unsaved Trash - perhaps less jaded and still going through the "indignant" stage, but I take your point about the "dumbing down" of America.

the comment was really made to compare the difference in the possible ability of a US english speaking citizen to avoid them with that of the population of Benin, which is considerable

Unsaved Trash
09-08-2010, 11:36 AM
Wil - I would assume you "missed" this or are you just pulling your usual routine? http://www.realscam.com/f16/ponzi-scheme-shakes-africas-benin-280/index2.html#post3769

A Life Aloft
09-08-2010, 11:38 AM
Someone who really doesn' want to understand the way a third world country operates. or has a reading problem.


This argument with Iamwill is a complete waste of time and energy. His need to be right (even if he is wrong) far surpasses his interest or indignation at the damage caused by a sophisticated fraud perpetrated by sophisticated fraudsters on an unsophisticated nation, which will have far reaching effects which may even include the destabilization of its political system.
You have just summed up every conversation with him on this forum and on Scam on any subject. Between the ignorance, the plain stupidity, the lack of reason and logic, the deflections, backpedaling, avoidance, the off topic and ridiculous analogies/comparisons, lack of reading and comprehension skills, the lying and propagated fairy tales, denial, delusions, lack of knowledge, twisting of the facts to suit his own views, refusal to answer any direct questions, critical thinking, inability to learn anything, his obvious envy issues of others, being a complete an utter failure in the workforce, claiming he has not made statements that he clearly has, asinine and absurd statements, repetitive ongoing recalcitrance, utter blindness, lack of basic common sense, uneducated opinions, trying to turn the tables on others when he is backed into a corner like a trapped cockroach, the need to believe that what he thinks is the truth is the truth- even though he wouldn't know the truth if it bit him in the ass, he's a total waste of space basically. He is the king of going around in circles that lead to nowhere and saying nothing of value.

Unsaved Trash
09-08-2010, 11:44 AM
He is the king of going around in circles that lead to nowhere and saying nothing of value.

You forgot that he also won't answer questions when cornered.

A Life Aloft
09-08-2010, 12:15 PM
You forgot that he also won't answer questions when cornered.He never answers any question with a direct answer. Never. Then when he is asked the same question(s) 20 more times, and never answers it/them, and then it's pointed out that he has never answered the question(s), he just lies and says he has. lmao It's like talking to someone who is a patient in a mental institution, frankly.

Blue Wolf
09-08-2010, 04:01 PM
Wil, you didn't even answer my question.

(Sigh.)

Let me start over.

From wikipedia:

**********************************

Madoff investment scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madoff_investment_scandal)

Madoff's annual returns were "unusually consistent",[46] around 10%, and were a key factor in perpetuating the fraud.[47] Ponzi schemes typically pay returns of 20% or higher, and collapse quickly. One Madoff fund, which described its "strategy" as focusing on shares in the Standard & Poor's 100-stock index, reported a 10.5% annual return during the previous 17 years.

***********************************

So let's say somebody invested in a Madoff fund, with the expectation of receiving 10.5% a year, based upon the 17-year performance of the fund.

Then he loses all of his money, because it was a ponzi scheme.

So here's my question:

Doesn't that prove to you that ponzi schemes can work without people (i.e. the victims) being really greedy?

Seriously?
09-08-2010, 08:23 PM
With the work I do, wil's answers just scream "I'm an American!" I doubt if he's ever considered that even beyond the education issues plus that have already been pointed out, culturally, these people are unable to think that someone they trust (a family member, the government) would scam them.

Cultural lesson for the day - cultures can be defined as being "collectivist" or "individualist".

''Collectivist'' societies share these traits:
*Focus is on the relationships of the family or group
*Dependence on the group for problem solving
*Dependence on others is encouraged
*Treat others according to position in society
*Differences are mediated
*Use ''indirect'' communication

''Individualist'' societies share these traits
*Focus is on the individual
*Problems are solved by the individual
*Self-reliance is valued
*Treat others as equals
*Differences are confronted
*Use ''direct'' communication

In a study done by Geert Hofstede in the late 60s/early 70s, countries were rated by several cultural dimensions, one of them being individualism. Guess who tops the chart? The US (http://www.geert-hofstede.com/hofstede_united_states.shtml). West Africa (http://www.geert-hofstede.com/hofstede_west_africa.shtml) (Benin not being rated by itself) rates very low.

Look at what has been said about those who lost savings:

Television news shows showed Mr Yayi and other top government officials posing alongside the managers of the investment firm.

"We saw them on television," said Pierre Dossa, a mechanic who lost his savings. "How could we not believe in it?"

I.C.C., while ensnaring its victims, multiplied its good works, helping to finance health clinics, feeding orphanages, digging wells and making donations to the evangelical Christian groups that are important here.

“I just wanted to help my family.”

breadwinners have extended families counting on them

Menton was referred to the company by friends who had already invested

So these people are only doing what is culturally acceptable for them. Maybe not by American standards, but by Benin standards, and needs to be looked at in that context.

iamwil
09-09-2010, 08:12 AM
The members of this forum condemn the ponzi scheme in Benin and would like to see all its owners, promoters and all those who helped its perpetration in jail and the victims compensated . DOH, have I ever said otherwise?

Face it, if you fellas don't like me. If I said the sky was blue, you'd disagree.

Savedtrash... not true at night it is black dotted with stars.

Wishful thinking... actually it isn't blue...it is all colors other than blue, blue is the color reflected and what your eye sees.

Pilot... no such luck, don't you know how a prism works, you pissant know nothing, where are my tums?

Blue wolf... yeah? well what about cloudy days?

Serioiusly... typical, I guess you've never seen a sunrise or sunset, you should get up earlier...


Wil, you didn't even answer my question.Doesn't that prove to you that ponzi schemes can work without people (i.e. the victims) being really greedy? I did answer your question, I posted where it said Madoff promised 18-20% returns. Which answered your own question.

littleroundman
09-09-2010, 10:08 AM
I did answer your question, I posted where it said Madoff promised 18-20% returns. Which answered your own question.

Except you answered the question with more lies.

Here's a tip for you, "iamwil"

when you're researching facts to back an argument, make sure you don't just choose the first results you find which support that argument.

To quote a "real" financial analyst:


Madoff’s annual returns over the past five years ranged from 8.5 percent to 11.7 percent, and included “several months” of negative results, the letter said. While the “split-strike” strategy Madoff purported to use would have produced returns of about 5 percent annually, Notz Stucki was led to believe that the results were boosted by proprietary models predicting short-term market movements and sophisticated execution systems, the firm said in the letter.

In fact, the same Swiss Money managing company, Notz, Stucki & Cie. previously had reported Madoff Investments offered “dull but steady” returns.

Tell us "iamwil" can you even lie straight in bed ????

Unsaved Trash
09-09-2010, 11:19 AM
Face it, if you fellas don't like me. If I said the sky was blue, you'd disagree.



No, Wil, we don't have any respect for you. You won't answer the questions, you spout off tons of bullshit and then when called out on it, you abandon the threads. I've asked you several questions and even posted them again. You're a coward in the highest degree. And a blowhard.

littleroundman
09-09-2010, 11:24 AM
Face it, if you fellas don't like me. If I said the sky was blue, you'd disagree.



Don't flatter yourself that people care enough to bother "not liking you"

Let's try an experiment.

You tell the truth for once or state a "fact", and we'll see just how people react.

Seriously?
09-09-2010, 12:34 PM
Serioiusly... typical, I guess you've never seen a sunrise or sunset, you should get up earlier...

That makes no sense.

A Life Aloft
09-09-2010, 01:06 PM
That makes no sense. Much like all of his posts. lol Your post however, was factual, truthful, insightful and addresses the issue specifically and was backed up with a very good study. Everyone's posts on this subject have flown right over Willy's head though. The only thing that matters to him is his own ignorant, incorrect opinion. Also a recurring scenario. When the truth and the facts are clealry and succinctly presented by every other poster here, his reaction is always the same. Lie, deflect, backpeddle, obfuscate, whine and flee.

iamwil
09-09-2010, 02:05 PM
Here's a tip for you and a tip for you... learn to read..

Did I say what the actual returns were?

Madoff promised 18-20%, he didn't provide it.

But he kept promising it.

Why would someone stay with the lower performing portfolio...because of the promise of higher returns.

oh my.


I suppose you all can dance in the streets...

I'll go on a sabatical from this site...it'll be quiet I know since I have such a following, since you are all so enamoured with my life, that the majority of posts are about me.

And quite a few will now be about me leaving...you just can't help yourselves...

tis like 15 year olds on a date...nothing to talk about...

you all don't get it....one lawyer can't make any money...there needs to be two in town so they can sue each other...

with out opposition there is no discussion...

A Life Aloft
09-09-2010, 02:22 PM
I suppose you all can dance in the streets...
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_6VNmsvoJ0SU/R1AvnykLkII/AAAAAAAABXA/B4YcZvP_ey8/s1600-R/bwayline.jpg

A Life Aloft
09-09-2010, 02:26 PM
with out opposition there is no discussion...Actually, without intelligence, critical thinking, honesty, rational/logical thought, research and education, putting pre-conceived notions aside, being informed and not ignorant, being able to learn, staying on the subject matter, there is no valuable or meaningful discussion.

Blue Wolf
09-09-2010, 05:21 PM
Madoff promised 18-20%, he didn't provide it.

But he kept promising it.


Can you show me proof that Madoff promised everybody 18-20% per year?

Thanks.

littleroundman
09-09-2010, 05:48 PM
Can you show me proof that Madoff promised everybody 18-20% per year?

Thanks.

I can only put it down to some sort of perverse financial envy of those fortunate enough to actually have money to invest that keeps "iamwil" persisting with his claims.

There have been countless books, programs and commentaries on the "brilliance" of Madoffs' scheme in that he DIDN'T promise or deliver such outrageous returns.

It's the very reason the Madoff scheme was able to fool so many outwardly conservative investors for such a long period.

Still, it IS "iamwil" making the claims, so it's not like it's anyone with credibility.

Unsaved Trash
09-09-2010, 06:00 PM
I suppose you all can dance in the streets...

I'll go on a sabatical from this site...it'll be quiet I know since I have such a following, since you are all so enamoured with my life, that the majority of posts are about me.

And quite a few will now be about me leaving...you just can't help yourselves...

tis like 15 year olds on a date...nothing to talk about...

you all don't get it....one lawyer can't make any money...there needs to be two in town so they can sue each other...

with out opposition there is no discussion...

See Wil, you will not really leave. You'll continue to read the posts but you're a coward and I stated that before. You cannot and will not back up anything you say, so now you leave in a huff. Remember my comment about a cornered rat? Describes you perfectly. And a whiner, I almost forgot that.

Should I ever be enamored with your life, I seriously hope someone shoots me in the head.

Blue Wolf
09-11-2010, 03:00 PM
There have been countless books, programs and commentaries on the "brilliance" of Madoffs' scheme in that he DIDN'T promise or deliver such outrageous returns.

It's the very reason the Madoff scheme was able to fool so many outwardly conservative investors for such a long period.

True.

Who would have thought he was running a ponzi scheme with such low returns? That's not what I would expect a "normal" ponzi scheme to look like. Very sneaky. And very sickening.

Of course, Wil doesn't care about these facts, because he would rather blame the "greedy" victims. That way, he doesn't have to admit that he's wrong.

Oh, and I just love this comment that he left right before he scurried away:


I'll go on a sabatical from this site...it'll be quiet I know since I have such a following, since you are all so enamoured with my life, that the majority of posts are about me.


Yeah, right. Nobody would have even mentioned him on this thread if he hadn't come here in the first place, spreading around more nonsense and misinformation . . . as usual.

And trying to get him to answer a question is like trying to fill up a bucket with water that has a bunch of holes in the bottom of it.

It's a waste of time.

Then he runs away like a frightened little rabbit looking for a hole to jump into. It's like he's afraid of the truth.

Perhaps Wil should consider a career in politics. He would fit in perfectly, when you think about it.

Most of our politicians don't seem to be interested in honesty and integrity. And neither does he.

Unsaved Trash
10-10-2010, 10:06 PM
I suppose you all can dance in the streets...

I'll go on a sabatical from this site...it'll be quiet I know since I have such a following, since you are all so enamoured with my life, that the majority of posts are about me.

And quite a few will now be about me leaving...you just can't help yourselves...

tis like 15 year olds on a date...nothing to talk about...

you all don't get it....one lawyer can't make any money...there needs to be two in town so they can sue each other...

with out opposition there is no discussion...

Wil, someone told me that you are/were in AU. Is that why your IP during this time never changed from your home? I didn't realize that was possible. You always claimed I called you a liar. Well, now I am.