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Doc Bunkum
07-13-2010, 07:41 AM
Ran across an interesting post where someone outlines the similarities between MLM (in this case AL Williams) and the mind control techniques of the Jehovah's Witnesses (WatchTower Society).

Have you ever noticed how similar the Society is to a Multi-Level Marketing Business? (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/193806/1/Have-you-ever-noticed-how-similar-the-Society-is-to-a-Multi-Level-Marketing-Business)

A follow up post suggests: "Go to Google and type in Amway and jehovahs witnesses".

Actually, if you go to Google and type in "MLM and jehovahs witnesses", you also get a lot of interesting hits.

Another poster observes:

"Mulitlevel marketing companies use the same control techniques of other cults.

My cousin attended a Usana conference, which was being run by an elder at the Versace hotel on the Gold Coast Australia. It was one of the eye openers for him, as he saw that it was presented exactly as a JW meeting. "

Emet
07-13-2010, 08:18 AM
"Mulitlevel marketing companies use the same control techniques of other cults."

Try Googling Amway and cult, or MLM and cult. Rick Ross (The Ross Institute Internet Archives for the study of destructive cults, controversial groups and movements) and others have commented numerous times on this phenomenon.

My favorite authors on this subject are Dean and Laura Vandruff:


Are you suggesting that MLM is a CULT???
Cults are generally regarded as religions, and MLM is a business system. Since they have different aims (God and money) any use of the term "cult" will be somewhat tangential and obtuse. Nonetheless, there are many similarities in technique between MLMs and cults that are rather obvious. I am not alone in noticing this.
MLM seems to require a whole life decision to make "work".

What seems odd to me is that in many ways MLM has more influence than even religion in people's lives: evoking more passion and more defensiveness and more energy for those who seek to practice it.

On top of this, consider the radical commitment and obedience demanded by MLM "apostles", and how many people actually make a zealous attempt to follow them.

When the MLM "piper" plays his flute, people, it seems, turn into lemmings.

If you think I am overstating the case here, think about how often, and to what extent, a potent "religion" or new cult can sweep people off their feet; get them to change their behavior and thoughts and friends and lifestyles? If people were anything near this faithful, obedient, and zealous to their churches, our world would be a very different place indeed.

And yet dress such radical epistemology and behavior changes up in MLM clothes and people will abandon what they have long believed, dreamed of, and labored for all their lives... all to chase an elusive pot of gold at the end of an MLM rainbow. How does this happen to sensible people?

The temptation--and effect--is absurd, when you step back to look at it. One does have to wonder if something spiritual might be going on here, even if it is not a religion by name. What person, on such a flimsy financial pretext, would otherwise give so much of their life over--without careful consideration--to anything else?

The sirens of MLM appear to have a special music to lead people onto the rocks.

In this same vein, how often do you see people recklessly abandoning long-held ethics and values just for "a little extra money"? I mean, burglars and convenience store robbers can also make a little extra on the side, but is there a mass exodus from the middle classes? Yet with a plastic MLM carrot dangling, many otherwise sensible, sober people will abandon their lives to what is clearly immoral activity. How often in the rest of reality do you see this? Is not the thing exceptionally unusual?

The MLM dream weaver appears to be a potent spell caster.

What is Wrong With MLM - FAQ (http://www.vandruff.com/mlm_FAQ.html)

iamwil
07-13-2010, 08:25 AM
Never having been to a JW meeting.... I can't say the veracity of any of the above.

But I'd suppose a sales pitch is a sales pitch. One of my fav's;

This fellow dies and is standing at the pearly gates, St. Mike opens up the book and says "Quite interesting, we've got your tally right here and you are right on the cusp, one point one way, guaranteed into heaven, one point the other and a straight ride to hell. I've never seen it so close. I guess you get your choice. So go on down to hell, take a look around. Comeon back up and we'll give you a tour of heaven.

He heads on down to hell and not only is there a big party goin on, but great music, a big buffet of wonderful foods, dancing, and a lot of his friends. They hoop it up for the night he tires and wakes up the next morning in heaven. As he walks around, nice flute and harp music, folks meditating, everything serene and quiet...but no excitement...it is all quite nice, the folks are friendly enough, but it just doesn't get it.

He wanders back to the pearly gates and says..."I really think I liked hell better, it is more my style" No problem and poof he's in hell, chained to a rock, hotter than you know and everyone is sweating and he gets whipped and told to get to work. He sees someone he recognizes..."What the hell is this? I was here last night and this place was a party" His friend says...oh yeah, this is what it is like normally....that was the opportunity meeting.

Emet
07-13-2010, 09:08 AM
Nice joke, iamwil! :RpS_laugh:


But I'd suppose a sales pitch is a sales pitch.
I would agree... up to a point. I believe there are many industries that engage in high pressured sales pitches (auto sales, time shares, gym memberships).
But IMO, I don't believe they engage in the tactics outlined by the Vandruffs.

BTW, I read your post about baiting on another thread. I hope you've seen that I have not engaged in any ad hominem attacks, and that you interpret my posts as polite and respectful, as that is their purpose. If I have failed in any of my responses, I encourage you to point them out to me--we are all human, after all.

Thanks.
Respectfully submitted,

Emet

Unsaved Trash
07-13-2010, 09:46 AM
Try Googling Amway and cult, or MLM and cult. Rick Ross (The Ross Institute Internet Archives for the study of destructive cults, controversial groups and movements) and others have commented numerous times on this phenomenon.

My favorite authors on this subject are Dean and Laura Vandruff:



Someone else pointed out these authors on another site. I read a lot of their thoughts. The biggest thing that struck a chord with me is that of all of the MLM meetings I've attended out of pure interest in the presentations is that they're basically all the same. They do make you feel as if you will belong to something special. The YTBers were especially surrounded by this cultlike behavior. My basic impression is that most of the marks are social misfits. And they fall for it hook, line and sinker.

Having been raised in the liberal sect of the Mennonite church (somehow I strayed), I am more than familiar with the strict version, I am very familiar with the Mormon, Quaker, Amish, and JWs. It is very similar to MLM. You conform and you belong. You don't conform and you are not welcome. In other words, you failed. It's always your fault. The church will not fail you, you will fail the church. And this is different from MLMs? No, it is not.

Emet
07-13-2010, 09:54 AM
My basic impression is that most of the marks are social misfits.

That may be your impression, but this post bears repeating here:


What kinds of people join cults? What's wrong with them?"

For the most part, normal, average people join cults--people like you and me. Research indicates that approximately two-thirds of cult members are psychologically healthy people that come from normal families. The remaining third are likely to have depressive symptoms, usually related to a personal loss--perhaps a death in the family, a failed romantic relationship, or career troubles. Only 5 to 6 percent of cult members demonstrate major psychological problems prior to joining a cult (Singer, 1995). Cults don't want, and don't recruit, people with psychological problems or physical handicaps--they represent a loss rather than a gain of cult-oriented productivity. Cults prefer intelligent, productive individuals who are able to contribute money and talent to "the cause," whatever it may be (Hassan, 198-).

Behavior is a function of both a person's personality and her situation (those of you who've taken psychology may recall the classic Lewinian formulation B=f[P,E] which indicates that behavior is a function of, or an interaction of, both the personality and the environment). One of social psychology's great discoveries has been the overwhelming influence that the environment--the immediate situation--exerts on people's behavior. Yet, when assigning cause, observers will usually attribute cause to a person's personality, not the constraints of the environment.

This is such a persistent and reliable human bias--to assign cause to the person rather than to the environment--that it has been given the name of "the fundamental attribution error."

The fact is, the environment can easily dominate personality-based differences among people, making person differences a relatively minor variable in the equation. In other words, given a powerful and engaging situation, people often react to it in a uniformly similar fashion, regardless of personality differences. This truism has been demonstrated numerous times in the laboratory (Sharif, Asch, Milgram. . .) and more frighteningly, in real life (Nazism, Bolshevism, Jim Jones . . .).


True to this discovery, there appears to be no reliable personality factor that predicts cult membership. However, certain situational elements make people more vulnerable to cult recruitment, and they include: loneliness (as experienced by someone who has recently moved to a new location); depression (as we feel after a failed relationship); and uncertainty about how to proceed (as I felt when I first went to college). These situations create the desire for quick, simple solutions. Cults provide a myriad of "solutions," which are more importantly accompanied by structure, authority, and close social contacts--elements that people want, need, and which most of us take for granted in the course of our everyday lives.

Cult Influence & Persuasion Tactics (http://www.workingpsychology.com/cult.html)

iamwil
07-13-2010, 10:04 AM
But IMO, I don't believe they engage in the tactics outlined by the Vandruffs.

I have not engaged in any ad hominem attacks, and that you interpret my posts as polite and respectful, as that is their purpose. No worries I stumble as well, and it irritates me if I do it when pushed...but the knee jerk reaction of responding in kind has 40+ years of experience... don't hesitate to push me back on the path as well...I'll appreciate it!


In this same vein, how often do you see people recklessly abandoning long-held ethics and values just for "a little extra money"? I've seen this as well, and yes it is exactly what gives MLM a bad name. I tell folks of the product, tell them of the opportunity...and often tell them it isn't for them. I don't understand why I would want to force something down someones throat and then continue this pattern... I'd rather work with folks that want the product or want to work the business. The easy path...


Someone else pointed out these authors on another site. I read a lot of their thoughts. The biggest thing that struck a chord with me is that of all of the MLM meetings I've attended out of pure interest in the presentations is that they're basically all the same. They do make you feel as if you will belong to something special. The YTBers were especially surrounded by this cultlike behavior. My basic impression is that most of the marks are social misfits. And they fall for it hook, line and sinker.

Having been raised in the liberal sect of the Mennonite church (somehow I strayed), I am more than familiar with the strict version, I am very familiar with the Mormon, Quaker, Amish, and JWs. It is very similar to MLM. You conform and you belong. You don't conform and you are not welcome. In other words, you failed. It's always your fault. The church will not fail you, you will fail the church. And this is different from MLMs? No, it is not. It is interesting...being what is referenced as a liberal christian... I can't imagine the concept of shunning. I've heard about it with various churches, and seen it in an insurance company (if you asked about someone you hadn't seen in a bit and they had left, despite the fact that he'd been there for years prior the President of the company would say "Who?")

WishfulThinking
07-13-2010, 10:06 AM
There has been a lot written about the similarity between the MLM motivational training and cults. Amway and Scientology is the first that springs to mind, but there are many others.

Two of the most important people in promoting the ASD ponzi were members of the Scientology Church - Tari Steward and Bob Cefail. The later had also been the subject of a very unpleasant legal action for extorsion of funds from a brain damaged youngster. One of the best known "MLM motivational trainers" in Latin America (Herbalife, Amway and a long list of etceteras), Rene Mantecon, is also a Scientologist AND a qualified hypnotherapist.

The obvious similarites between the Jehovahs Witnesses and MLMs are in their evangelical techniques of promotion which frequently borders on the cultlike. Of the two, I have to admit to preferring the Jehovahs Witnesses, who at least seem to be sincere.

Unsaved Trash
07-13-2010, 11:02 AM
It is interesting...being what is referenced as a liberal christian... I can't imagine the concept of shunning. I've heard about it with various churches, and seen it in an insurance company (if you asked about someone you hadn't seen in a bit and they had left, despite the fact that he'd been there for years prior the President of the company would say "Who?")

I wouldn't classify the religions I mentioned as "liberal Christians." Most restrictive would be more like it. Just as an example, if you are a "true" Mormon, you follow the Mormon religion to the exact. You wear the underwear, you stockpile the food, you do the missionary work, etc. If you don't, you're not a "true" Mormon. The "true" Mormons are very judgmental on this. Trust me, I know.

Lightbulb
07-13-2010, 11:26 AM
. It is interesting...being what is referenced as a liberal christian...

Unsaved Trash, I read that sentence as iamwil saying that he himself is what is commonly referred to as a 'liberal christian' not that the religions you mentioned were of the type called 'liberal christian' but that is just my interpretation of what iamwill wrote.

I do agree that some of the MLM rah-rah meetings certainly remind me of a Southern Baptist revival meeting.

littleroundman
07-13-2010, 11:32 AM
There has been a lot written about the similarity between the MLM motivational training and cults.

Several important points need to be made here.

There is a plethora of easily obtained "how to" manuals readily available to anyone so inclined, and which explain in full detail the nuts and bolts of group "mind control"

A great deal of such information has evolved from what is known as the "human potential" movement whose roots can be traced back to the 1950s.

Google "EST/Werner Erhard/Erhard Seminars Training" "Lifespring" "Landmark Education/The Forum" "Silva Mind Control" "Mind Dynamics/Alexander Everett"

Then read up on Large Group Awareness Training organizations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Large_Group_Awareness_Training%20organizat ions)

Check out how many of these individuals and organizations were and are interrelated.

Then realize that each and every one of the organizations churned out literally THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of instructors versed in the art of mind and group control.

Every single aspect of how to control and influence peoples' thoughts and actions, right down to the distance between chairs in group meetings, the use of music and colour, room temperature and each word and phrase used is taught and documented.

As if that weren't bad enough, countless thousands of people so influenced have used the same and similar tactics at countless thousands of meetings without knowing how and why they're doing so.

iamwil
07-13-2010, 12:22 PM
Unsaved Trash, I read that sentence as iamwil saying that he himself is what is commonly referred to as a 'liberal christian' not that the religions you mentioned were of the type called 'liberal christian' but that is just my interpretation of what iamwill wrote.

I do agree that some of the MLM rah-rah meetings certainly remind me of a Southern Baptist revival meeting. Thank you, you are correct. I guess that is why I am called illiterate by some, my inability to get my point across clearly.

And yes, the rah rah stuff is sickening...revival, or pep rally...but I've also seen similar in plenty of corporate meetings.

Unsaved Trash
07-13-2010, 12:56 PM
Thank you, you are correct. I guess that is why I am called illiterate by some, my inability to get my point across clearly.



Or it could be that in my case, the wheel is spinning but the hamster is dead. That's usually the reason and it's the excuse I'm sticking with.

Lightbulb
07-13-2010, 04:43 PM
Or it could be that in my case, the wheel is spinning but the hamster is dead. That's usually the reason and it's the excuse I'm sticking with.
Naw, the hamster isn't dead, he is just enjoying the ride, like "The Himalaya" at the fair, 'round and 'round you go.


I have to admit to preferring the Jehovahs Witnesses, who at least seem to be sincere.
The ones that walk door to door around here are polite and do seem sincere, as well.

Lil Ol' Radical Me
07-13-2010, 05:20 PM
Definately polite. We were brought up round the corner from Watchtower House and the JWs all came to practice on the neighbours. Poor things never deserved the treatment a pair of smart a$$ed teenagers gave them. lol

But there again, they are not getting a recruitment comission - just "spreading the word". Although the JWs were chosen as the comparison with MLMs on this thread, I think there are far worse evangelists around.

Interesting post LRM - you raise some important points.

Mike!
07-13-2010, 05:43 PM
Or it could be that in my case, the wheel is spinning but the hamster is dead. That's usually the reason and it's the excuse I'm sticking with.

Spinning a dead hamster?:RpS_scared:
Is that a miniture version of beating a dead horse?:RpS_unsure:
I'm a glass half cracked kind of guy myself.:RpS_thumbsup:

iamwil
07-14-2010, 08:15 AM
I used to give smart assed answers to the door to door saviour types, JWs, Mormon's, Baptists...

I used to drive them crazy with the intention of having them run away screaming and praying for my soul....and then they'd go down the street other days...walking right by my house and pointing "Don't go to that house he isn't worth it"

That was then...this is now, I invite them in, ask to read their literature, ask questions and discuss theology... as they start looking at their watch, sitting at the edge of thier seat, indicating they have to leave...I say "But I've got another question..." They often will bring back bigger guns, folks they are sure will be able to satisfy my questions and eliminate their confusion....but in the end...I get the same results as I got decades ago...they leave praying for my soul and not darkening my door again.

Lil Ol' Radical Me
07-15-2010, 05:40 AM
Ok, but as you are one of the posters here who is actually involved in the day to day of MLM, what are your thoughts on the similarities of MLM with the JWs and other evangelist religions and cults? The question is not only about the one you are involved in, but the mlm world in general.

I've attended several meetings of mlms over the years, and found their methods very cult like and creepy.

littleroundman
07-15-2010, 06:34 AM
Is this the sort of thing the OP was questioning ????

Does anyone REALLY think it's coincidental so many religions/groups/MLM companies use the same or similar techniques ???

Does anyone REALLY think so many diverse groups "accidentally" began using such methods independent of each other ???

The information and "how to" is out there in detail.

For goodness' sakes, it's being taught in universities.

"Accident" my a**


Cults in Our Midst: The Hidden Menace in Our Everyday Lives is a nonfiction psychology book on cults, by Margaret Singer and Janja Lalich, Ph.D., with a foreword by Robert Jay Lifton. The book was published by Jossey-Bass in 1996 in hardcover format. In 1997, the book was published in Spanish, as Las Sectas Entre Nosotros[1], and in German, as Sekten: Wie Menschen ihre Freiheit verlieren und wiedergewinnen können ("Cults: How people lose and can regain their freedom")

Singer's Six Pre-Conditions for Thought Reform

In Cults in our Midst, the authors describe six conditions which they claim would create an atmosphere in which thought reform is possible. They state that these conditions involve no need for physical coercion or violence.


Keep the person unaware of what is going on and how attempts to psychologically condition him or her are directed in a step-by-step manner.

Potential new members are led, step by step, through a behavioral-change program without being aware of the final agenda or full content of the group. The goal may be to make them deployable agents for the leadership, to get them to buy more courses, or get them to make a deeper commitment, depending on the leader's aim and desires.


Control the person's social and/or physical environment; especially control the person's time.

Through various methods, newer members are kept busy and led to think about the group and its content during as much of their waking time as possible.


Systematically create a sense of powerlessness in the person.

This is accomplished by getting members away from their normal social support group for a period of time and into an environment where the majority of people are already group members.
The members serve as models of the attitudes and behaviors of the group and speak an in-group language.
Strip members of their main occupation (quit jobs, drop out of school) or source of income or have them turn over their income (or the majority of) to the group.
Once the target is stripped of their usual support network, their confidence in their own perception erodes.
As the target's sense of powerlessness increases, their good judgment and understanding of the world are diminished. (ordinary view of reality is destabilized)
As the group attacks the target's previous worldview, it causes the target distress and inner confusion; yet they are not allowed to speak about this confusion or object to it - leadership suppresses questions and counters resistance.
This process is sped up if the targeted individual or individuals are kept tired - the cult will take deliberate actions to keep the target constantly busy.


Manipulate a system of rewards, punishments and experiences in such a way as to inhibit behavior that reflects the person's former social identity.

Manipulation of experiences can be accomplished through various methods of trance induction, including leaders using such techniques as paced speaking patterns, guided imagery, chanting, long prayer sessions or lectures, and lengthy meditation sessions.
the target's old beliefs and patterns of behavior are defined as irrelevant or evil. Leadership wants these old patterns eliminated, so the member must suppress them.
Members get positive feedback for conforming to the group's beliefs and behaviors and negative feedback for old beliefs and behavior.


The group manipulates a system of rewards, punishments, and experiences in order to promote learning the group's ideology or belief system and group-approved behaviors.

Good behavior, demonstrating an understanding and acceptance of the group's beliefs, and compliance are rewarded while questioning, expressing doubts or criticizing are met with disapproval, redress and possible rejection. Anyone who asks a question is made to feel there is something inherently disordered about them to be questioning.
The only feedback members get is from the group; they become totally dependent upon the rewards given by those who control the environment.
Members must learn varying amounts of new information about the beliefs of the group and the behaviors expected by the group.
The more complicated and filled with contradictions the new system is and the more difficult it is to learn, the more effective the conversion process will be.
Esteem and affection from peers is very important to new recruits. Approval comes from having the new member's behaviors and thought patterns conform to the models (members). Members' relationship with peers is threatened whenever they fail to learn or display new behaviors. Over time, the easy solution to the insecurity generated by the difficulties of learning the new system is to inhibit any display of doubts—new recruits simply acquiesce, affirm and act as if they do understand and accept the new ideology.


Put forth a closed system of logic and an authoritarian structure that permits no feedback and refuses to be modified except by leadership approval or executive order.

The group has a top-down, pyramid structure. The leaders must have verbal ways of never losing.
Members are not allowed to question, criticize or complain. If they do, the leaders allege the member is defective, not the organization or the beliefs.
The targeted individual is treated as always intellectually incorrect or unjust, while conversely the system, its leaders and its beliefs are always automatically, and by default, considered as absolutely just.
Conversion or remolding of the individual member happens in a closed system. As members learn to modify their behavior in order to be accepted in this closed system, they change—begin to speak the language—which serves to further isolate them from their prior beliefs and behaviors.



Cults in Our Midst - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cults_in_Our_Midst)

iamwil
07-15-2010, 07:52 AM
Ok, but as you are one of the posters here who is actually involved in the day to day of MLM, what are your thoughts on the similarities of MLM with the JWs and other evangelist religions and cults? The question is not only about the one you are involved in, but the mlm world in general.

I've attended several meetings of mlms over the years, and found their methods very cult like and creepy. Are there similarities? I'd say yes. But I'd also say I left an insurance company because the similarities were even more so.

I haven't attended enough other companies to know...I did attend and amway meeting and know a number of amway folks and I'd say a group think mentality does occur there.

I've also never attended any JW meetings or tent revivals or been in any cults (well since organized religion is the number one meaning for cult...I guess I am in one)

But is there a 'club' or fraternity atmosphere...sure. A feeling that you belong to something bigger than yourself, develop 'family' style familiar relationships more than at the office? Yes. And that is the appeal to me. I've got MLM friends that I am very close to. I care about their health, and that of their families, I see them more often than many of my cousins. They ask about my kids wellbeing and college plans... working in a team situation, over a period of years creates that I suppose.

I'd say I'm much more connected with a number of them than I am with the folks in the office I've been working at for 15 years. (to be fair, only my boss has been there as long as I have)

Seriously?
07-15-2010, 06:50 PM
But is there a 'club' or fraternity atmosphere...sure. A feeling that you belong to something bigger than yourself, develop 'family' style familiar relationships more than at the office? Yes. And that is the appeal to me. I've got MLM friends that I am very close to. I care about their health, and that of their families, I see them more often than many of my cousins. They ask about my kids wellbeing and college plans... working in a team situation, over a period of years creates that I suppose.

Sure. Everyone likes to be part of a group. Where they cross the line would be when they say things such as, the business didn't fail, you failed the business. Or take the mentality that if you're not with us, you're against us... and worse yet, do this all in the name of religion.