Is being a moderator at a hyip forum, being ethical?

[lrapshop]

I just wonder what you think. Being a moderator at a hyip forum, you know they will be scammed anyway. So actually they should block every program.
But still they let them do their work on their? And they got paid via the earnings of the advertisers? aka scammers, spammers, whatever you can call them.

I want your opinion about it, do you think its ethical or unethical?

[consolidation]

Is it ethical or not?... is really a cultural consideration, maybe a more pertinent query would be... is it legal in the particular country / countries you are targeting?

Unfortunately, you have been informed of this previously, this issue and the parameters for being assessed as tolerable wrt western ethics has already been well outlined by LRM http://www.realscam.com/f8/lrapshop-com-another-scammy-shop-owned-old-hyip-monitor-742/index3.html#post14493

[lrapshop]

I know it wasnt right, it was unethical... even with the use of a disclaimer. Thats the reason I stopped with it! But since I saw many hyip moderators here who give me a kick in the but, I was asking myself... are they than ethical?

[Lil Ol' Radical Me]

No way are they ethical - they are enablers of unsustainable and illegal programs and as such are enabling and profiting from fraud.

[Fgold]

I just wonder what you think. Being a moderator at a hyip forum, you know they will be scammed anyway. So actually they should block every program.
But still they let them do their work on their? And they got paid via the earnings of the advertisers? aka scammers, spammers, whatever you can call them.

I want your opinion about it, do you think its ethical or unethical?

LOL it looks like you don't know anything about how a forum is being managed. The one who deals with advertisers is the admin and not the mod!
So in your view if a thief goes for shopping and buys a product(a pistol for example...) that means that the seller is being unethical??? Seller was just selling his product and has NO fault about buyers intentions and NO fault about the bad usage of the produt!!... And if you have looked at advertisements disclaimers you can realize that most places are not responsible for the kind of businesses showed in their ads....
I know a bank who bought TV ads and few years ago it went to bankrupcy and people lost their investments/deposits so the TV channel who received money from that ads is also guilty??? Obviously not! Site advertisements are just products/services that can be sold and any site/forum needs to sell ad space to survive...
The intention of any forum is to selling certain type of ads. HYIP is among one of them. There is nothing wrong in it.
And what about you Ben?? Do you accept hyip admins or any potencial criminals to buy products in your shopping service or not?? How you can recognize if your buyer is a criminal or not??? So if someone buys a knife in your shop and use it to kill somebody, so are you also responsible for that??? The same happens in hyip forum ads, the owner can't be responsible for the bad usage of that product/service and that is written in the forum's disclaimers!

[path2prosperity]

Is it ethical or not?... is really a cultural consideration, maybe a more pertinent query would be... is it legal in the particular country / countries you are targeting?



That is the point which I was going to make "consolidation." There are jobs in plenty of High Street betting shops in the UK, where employees get paid out of the punter's losses. It is legal to work in a betting shop in UK but I have no desire to work in one. I have turned down offers to work as a mod in several cyberspace forums because I had not a clue what was or was not legal in the British corner of cyberspace, until fairly recently.

If I was really desperate to keep a roof over my head and had to earn from somebody elses's losses, I would rather work in a betting shop in my own country than in some untamed corner of cyberspace where I could only get paid in some foreign currency.

[lrapshop]

thanku for your view, my view has kinda changed. Fgold has a point in some way.

[okosh]

I just wonder what you think. Being a moderator at a hyip forum, you know they will be scammed anyway. So actually they should block every program.
But still they let them do their work on their? And they got paid via the earnings of the advertisers? aka scammers, spammers, whatever you can call them.

I want your opinion about it, do you think its ethical or unethical?

Nothing wrong with being a mod at a hyip forum.....Unless you use the mod position to profit from the scams...(JMO)...

[Finix]

Being a moderator at a hyip forum, you know they will be scammed anyway.
They won't be scammed by the forums themselves unless they decide to purchase useless upgrades. Nothing wrong with being a mod anywhere. If you are an ethical mod, you'll be an ethical mod even in a den of thieves. Might even make some of the members more ethical as well.

[lrapshop]

Ok, but here it goes...

I can understand forums are just "information" and discussings about it.
The thing is, I get blaimed that I was a monitor. People paid advertising and bought banners (just the same as forums). In all the objectivity, I voted when they paid and I updated my website on that. What does make a monitor diffrent than a forum?
Since the same disclaimers are used...

[littleroundman]

What does make a monitor diffrent than a forum?

The same thing that makes a Volkswagen different than a Porsche.

They may both have 4 wheels, look similar and accomplish similar tasks.

They are, however, NOT the "same" by anyone's standards

[Finix]

What does make a monitor diffrent than a forum?
More or less the same difference as between television networks and individual types of programs.

Since the same disclaimers are used...
You can't use the same disclaimers. To monitor HYIPs, you have to participate in them. That makes you directly involved as opposed to being a third party advertiser like forums that sell ad spots. You can't be protected by the First Amendment like the forums.

[Lil Ol' Radical Me]

Nothing wrong with being a mod at a hyip forum.....Unless you use the mod position to profit from the scams...(JMO)...

I have a genuine problem with that argument. Even if the mod doesnt participate or profit from any of the scams discussed, the HYIP forums wouldn't even be there without the existence of illegal HYIPs. Ergo any participation that isn't attempting to call out the programs for what they are doesnt seem very ethical to me. JMHO

[Finix]

HYIP forums wouldn't even be there without the existence of illegal HYIPs.
Sure they would. There are plenty of online making opps that are not HYIPs. If the forums are diverse enough in terms of the topics discussed, the forums will still be there even if the whole HYIP industry goes to hell.

For example, a mod in the GPT section doesn't need to know anything about HYIPs past the basics. A mod in the e-currency section doesn't need to know anything about HYIPs past the basics. Etc. The only mods who need to know quite a bit about HYIPs are those modding the HYIP section. And you can't know quite a bit about HYIPs without getting involved into HYIPs. General knowledge is simply not enough to mod correctly.

[Lil Ol' Radical Me]

Sure they would. There are plenty of online making opps that are not HYIPs. If the forums are diverse enough in terms of the topics discussed, the forums will still be there even if the whole HYIP industry goes to hell.

For example, a mod in the GPT section doesn't need to know anything about HYIPs past the basics. A mod in the e-currency section doesn't need to know anything about HYIPs past the basics. Etc. The only mods who need to know quite a bit about HYIPs are those modding the HYIP section. And you can't know quite a bit about HYIPs without getting involved into HYIPs. General knowledge is simply not enough to mod correctly.

Well the original question was "Is being a moderator at a hyip forum, being ethical?" I can't see why one would describe a forum as a HYIP forum if it's principal content was anything other than HYIPs. I suppose I could have answered, "only if the threads they are moderating on the HYIP forum have nothing to do with hyips" but I think that is stretching a point too far. There are many online opps that are not HYIPs, but there are many that are also illegal or unsustainable, and are ethically no better than hyips, so the same opinion applies. Legal sustainable online business opportunities do not abound as much as some people would like to think and they are generally business specific and found on business specific forums.

I have to ask you, what on earth would someone want to discuss non-hyip, legal, sustainable business opportunities on a forum where it's principal opportunities are illegal?

[Finix]

Well the original question was "Is being a moderator at a hyip forum, being ethical?"
"Ethical" from the viewpoint of a total newb who has been through one program and decided he/she knows all there is to know and judge the whole industry is not the same "ethical" as for the industry veteran. If you stick around long enough, you might even find out why.

[okosh]

I have a genuine problem with that argument. Even if the mod doesnt participate or profit from any of the scams discussed, the HYIP forums wouldn't even be there without the existence of illegal HYIPs. Ergo any participation that isn't attempting to call out the programs for what they are doesnt seem very ethical to me. JMHO

So in order to be an "ethical" mod one needs to be camped out in the hyip folder calling out all the programs as ponzi scams???....

Maybe you should think outside the box....There is a lot of good that a mod can do in fighting the good fight without trolling the hyip folder...

[lrapshop]

You can't use the same disclaimers. To monitor HYIPs, you have to participate in them. That makes you directly involved as opposed to being a third party advertiser like forums that sell ad spots. You can't be protected by the First Amendment like the forums.

So are their basical rules for disclaimers? Its true that we participated in them, with the fee for listing. But still the monitor offers information, just like a forum would do. Just like a forum, the user is free to enter the hyip arena. My opinion, the diffrence is pretty small, as long the monitor is objective. Indeed, when subjectivity and his own money comes in the center, I think its pretty onethic.

[Finix]

So are their basical rules for disclaimers?
No one can give you legal advice online. The general rule of thumb is that you need as many disclaimers as would protect you from a lawsuit should the people who will have gained losses from the HYIPs they joined from your ad pursue such a road.

The first thing you have to do is to consult a lawyer to find that out what are your exact legal liabilities in your jurisdiction for promoting HYIPs to others via reflinks.

If you do not refer, and do not make any statements about HYIPs you monitor outside of statement of your own earnings, you need to find out from the lawyer what are your liabilities for omission of the typical earnings disclaimers.

If you do not have resources for doing things properly but still wish to pursue the idea of the HYIP monitor, then you'd better be in the jurisdiction where the existing laws are unenforceable for some reason or another. If this is the road you choose to take, it doesn't matter what disclaimers you use, as they will not protect you from the applicable laws.

[surfer]

It's as ethical as being a moderator in a pedophile forum, child porn forum, or any other forum that's centered around illegal activities that end up destroying people's lives.

[Finix]

It's as ethical as being a moderator in a pedophile forum, child porn forum, or any other forum that's centered around illegal activities that end up destroying people's lives.
I dunno about you, but if I were one of the victims, I'd prefer someone more neutral than perps themselves modding. JMO, of course.

[wserra]

I'm a little late to the conversation but - this may be hard to believe - I do have an opinion.

Being a mod in a HYIP forum is something akin to being cruise director on the Titanic - and knowing in advance that the ship is going to sink. The only ethical mode of operation is to tell everyone the truth up front. A sticky: "See all that stuff below? Every one is a ripoff. If you have any cash left after using it to start your evening fire, maybe you want to 'invest'. Otherwise, the Fly-by-Night Oil Exploration and Storm Door Repair Company is a better choice."

Anything else you do as a moderator is giving your imprimatur, to some degree or another, to thieves.

[laidback]

I'm a little late to the conversation but - this may be hard to believe - I do have an opinion.

the Fly-by-Night Oil Exploration and Storm Door Repair Company is a better choice."

Anything else you do as a moderator is giving your imprimatur, to some degree or another, to thieves.
Sorry, all my spare cash is invested in 1977 calendars. When 1977 comes around again I'll be rich, rich, rich....!

[Finix]

The only ethical mode of operation is to tell everyone the truth up front.
Using your Titanic example, the only thing telling the truth up front would accomplish is get you locked up in your cabin for the duration of the trip. In such a situation and with your approach, you'd be totally useless even to yourself, let alone anyone else.

[Lil Ol' Radical Me]

Using your Titanic example, the only thing telling the truth up front would accomplish is get you locked up in your cabin for the duration of the trip. In such a situation and with your approach, you'd be totally useless even to yourself, let alone anyone else.

On the contrary, the passengers would disembark before the ship set sail and would not end up shipwrecked. Likewise, if mods warn members and forum readers of the ills of the programs, they will probably not join. Ok, it would mean that the leaky ship would go out of business and the dodgy HYIP forum would do likewise, but who cares. It's not as if they do any good in the first place

[laidback]

On the contrary, the passengers would disembark before the ship set sail and would not end up shipwrecked. Likewise, if mods warn members and forum readers of the ills of the programs, they will probably not join. Ok, it would mean that the leaky ship would go out of business and the dodgy HYIP forum would do likewise, but who cares. It's not as if they do any good in the first place
I think you are partially right , LORM. There are plenty of 'players' out there that know these are doomed, but hope to hit and run prior to the crash. They do require money from newbies for any longevity, thus all the 'I got paid' posts and attempts to shout down the naysayers. If just the players "invsted" the result theoretically would be an ever shortening cycle since if the player wasn't first in they'd stay out. (jmho)

[littleroundman]

QUESTION:

At what point does something change from being "just a HYIP ponzi game" into "downright fraud"??

Is there some sort of unwritten rule which says once you go over a certain amount, it's officially no longer a "game" ??

Were Andy Bowdoin/Greg McKnight/Charis Johnson et al just unlucky that their particular "games" caught the imagination of the general public and went bigtime ??

Can an egg be "half rotten" or can someone be a "little bit pregnant" ??

[Lil Ol' Radical Me]

QUESTION:

At what point does something change from being "just a HYIP ponzi game" into "downright fraud"??

Is there some sort of unwritten rule which says once you go over a certain amount, it's officially no longer a "game" ??

Were Andy Bowdoin/Greg McKnight/Charis Johnson et al just unlucky that their particular "games" caught the imagination of the general public and went bigtime ??

Can an egg be "half rotten" or can someone be a "little bit pregnant" ??

What he said!

These games depend on someone losing their money and, as the HYIP forums are generally accessible to the general internet public, how can they guarantee that not one innocent victim gets caught up in them through them? After all, they are there so people can advertise and promote HYIPs. The discussions are generally about which illegal HYIP / unsustainable "program" is likely to last longer than others (with the exception of those few naysayers whose presence is soley to warn readers against the lot of them.

Funny thing, people still talk about legal "programs". Have you ever heard of a real business being called "a program"?? Lol

[Finix]

QUESTION:

At what point does something change from being "just a HYIP ponzi game" into "downright fraud"??
When we keep it to ourselves, it's a game. When we start dragging people who are unaware of the game into the game, it's fraud. Yes, unfortunately "we" also includes me now as I've reached a point of no return.


Is there some sort of unwritten rule which says once you go over a certain amount, it's officially no longer a "game" ??
There are no rules, other than the rules people make for themselves. From what I've seen the old school plays ethically, so they are the ones I'm going to learn from. Other than that, it's free for all.

[Finix]

On the contrary, the passengers would disembark before the ship set sail and would not end up shipwrecked.
Whatever you say, darling. Maybe in your rosy world, not in real one. In real one, you'll get a 24 hr lock up and a shot of tranquilizers for yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.

[Lil Ol' Radical Me]

Whatever you say, darling. Maybe in your rosy world, not in real one. In real one, you'll get a 24 hr lock up and a shot of tranquilizers for yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.

Now you are nit picking on the example wserra used. The point at issue is whether or not it is ethical to be a moderator on a HYIP forum, and my answer is NO unless you are about to call out the schemes for what they are. You wouldn't be a moderator on a forum like that if you weren't a habitual member and therefore "know" or "should know" what is going on.


I said
These games depend on someone losing their money and, as the HYIP forums are generally accessible to the general internet public, how can they guarantee that not one innocent victim gets caught up in them through them?

and you also said
When we keep it to ourselves, it's a game. When we start dragging people who are unaware of the game into the game, it's fraud.

so given the public nature of most HYIP forums and the fact that new "players" are their life blood, I think you have answered the original question.....darling

[Finix]

The point at issue is whether or not it is ethical to be a moderator on a HYIP forum
Yes, it's ethical to be a mod on any forum. It's even ethical to profit from it as long as you don't rope in the suckers yourself.

[Finix]

new "players" are their life blood
Doesn't matter, new or old. Once a player, always a player. That includes you, darling, however reluctant you might be to admit it right now.

[Lil Ol' Radical Me]

Doesn't matter, new or old. Once a player, always a player. That includes you, darling, however reluctant you might be to admit it right now.


Nothing to admit. As most here know, I joined and promoted one program in my life - AdSurfDaily. I can't rewrite history, much as I regret it. I was dumb enough to fall for a scam BUT I was not a "playa". I stupidly thought I was in a real advertising business. (Embarassing but true). We can all make one mistake,but that is still no excuse and I ain't making any. It's something I have to live with. (It is not a bad personal lesson either to learn that you dont know as much as you think you did.)

Anyway, after discovering the reality of what I had been involved in, thanks to the education offered to me by some of the members here and reading 100s of pages of court documents, I "went over to the other side" and will continue to pass on the education I was given to help others like me to avoid the frauds that are all over the internet masquerading as real business opportunities. If a few land up in jail it will be the icing on the cake.


And I still consider being a moderator on a forum whose principal purpose is to discuss and advertise illegal unregistered securities and the like is unethical. (darling)

[Lil Ol' Radical Me]

Yes, it's ethical to be a mod on any forum. It's even ethical to profit from it as long as you don't rope in the suckers yourself.

Not so. Moderators are perceived by members as having power and credibility. Standing by silently gives credibility to people who do rope in suckers and helps enable them to do it. It's rather like not attempting to stop an avoidable accident or standing by and watching someone else commit a crime.

[Finix]

Nothing to admit. As most here know, I joined and promoted one program in my life - AdSurfDaily.
Being scammed doesn't make you a player. Continuing to play word games with others, this time around under a banner of a scambuster, does.

[Finix]

Moderators are perceived by members as having power and credibility.
Oh, please. Maybe by very few, but in general the crowd attracted to HYIPs are a bunch of natural born hell raisers with complete disrespect for any authority.

[path2prosperity]

Doesn't matter, new or old. Once a player, always a player. That includes you, darling, however reluctant you might be to admit it right now.

That is utter rubbish Finix. I expected better thinking from you. Have you ever heard of the poacher who becomes a game keeper?

[Finix]

Have you ever heard of the poacher who becomes a game keeper?
He is still a hunter, only changed his prey type.

I've even heard of scammers who later became FBI agents. Same principle, though. You are still a player, even if you are playing for the other team. You nature doesn't change, what changes is the purpose you apply it to.

[okosh]

Now you are nit picking on the example wserra used. The point at issue is whether or not it is ethical to be a moderator on a HYIP forum, and my answer is NO unless you are about to call out the schemes for what they are. You wouldn't be a moderator on a forum like that if you weren't a habitual member and therefore "know" or "should know" what is going on.


This is your opinion which you are more then entitled to....Personally I say you are wrong....So wrong that you simply haven't got a clue...
There are more ways for a mod on a hyip forum to fight the good fight then just screaming "scam" in every hyip thread as you would have them do....
And YES I speak from real experience....

[wserra]

the only thing telling the truth up front would accomplish is get you locked up in your cabin

Therefore what - lie? Hide the truth?


In such a situation and with your approach, you'd be totally useless even to yourself, let alone anyone else.

And what good are you if you don't tell the truth? I don't know about you, but I wouldn't lend my good name to anything that required me to hide the ball. Maybe you think less of your name.


When we start dragging people who are unaware of the game into the game, it's fraud.

How about where you must know that people who think they might actually make money are joining, and say nothing so that you aren't "locked in your cabin"? Aren't you part of the problem? Are you familiar with the phrase "willful blindness"?


It's even ethical to profit from it as long as you don't rope in the suckers yourself.

You're walking down the street when you see a couple of thugs mugging an old lady. They grab her purse and run, and an ambulance takes her away - but no one except you sees the wad of cash that flew from her purse into the shadows near a building. When everybody leaves, you pick it up and walk away, whistling. After all, you didn't rope her in yourself.

[Finix]

Therefore what - lie? Hide the truth?
Sell life insurance or life jackets or something. Then jump the ship. Or don't get on it at all.

[Finix]

And what good are you if you don't tell the truth?
I have no problem with that. I no longer have an overwhelming urge to share the truth with random people even if I know the truth.

[wserra]

There are more ways for a mod on a hyip forum to fight the good fight

OK, I'll bite. What are they?

[wserra]

I no longer have an overwhelming urge to share the truth with random people even if I know the truth.

No one posited "random people". The proposition concerned people contemplating pissing their money away in a HYIP forum that you moderate.

[Finix]

No one posited "random people". The proposition concerned people contemplating pissing their money away in a HYIP forum that you moderate.
In your hypothetical situation when I'm a mod on a HYIP forum, the members are random people to me as I have no control over who joins. As for them pissing away their money, that's none of my damn business where they want to place their money. I would feel no obligation to them whatsoever in regards to having to enlighten them. It's not a job of the mod to educate, it's a job of the mod to make sure the discussion flow is per forum standard.

[okosh]

OK, I'll bite. What are they?

Isn't it obvious??
One could post questions and facts to disprove what the admins and shills post.
Expose those shilling with MPD....
Expose admins who use MPD...
Move threads to the bin faster then a mod-player would...
Allow both sides, not just the shills version....

With a little skill and determination a mod in a hyip forum who is fighting the good fight could even close the whole place down :RpS_tongue:

[wserra]

It's not a job of the mod to educate, it's a job of the mod to make sure the discussion flow is per forum standard.

In other words, to make the trains run on time.

Guess that's not the way I see it.

[wserra]

Isn't it obvious??
One could post questions and facts to disprove what the admins and shills post.
Expose those shilling with MPD....
Expose admins who use MPD...
Move threads to the bin faster then a mod-player would...
Allow both sides, not just the shills version....

So, when you wrote "There are more ways for a mod on a hyip forum to fight the good fight then just screaming "scam" in every hyip thread", you were speaking literally - because what you propose would amount to screaming "scam" in every hyip thread. I certainly think the management of a place like TalkGold would see it that way.

Good. No problem.

[Fgold]

Isn't it obvious??
One could post questions and facts to disprove what the admins and shills post.
Expose those shilling with MPD....
Expose admins who use MPD...
Move threads to the bin faster then a mod-player would...
Allow both sides, not just the shills version....

With a little skill and determination a mod in a hyip forum who is fighting the good fight could even close the whole place down :RpS_tongue:

As I know you have not comply with such rules when you managed ET & T4C forums.... :judge:

[Finix]

Guess that's not the way I see it.
It's because you are using the wrong metaphors to describe the situation. Titanic, trains, etc. Then you get stuck with your imagination developing the metaphor and it takes you very far away from reality of the situation.

[Lil Ol' Radical Me]

It's because you are using the wrong metaphors to describe the situation. Titanic, trains, etc. Then you get stuck with your imagination developing the metaphor and it takes you very far away from reality of the situation.

Funny thing that, I was just thinking what an excellent metaphor a "train running on time" was for "everything running smoothly. Either way, it's a pretty amoral way to look at the ethical import of moderating a HYIP forum, which was the original question for this thread.

Like his signature line too
"A wise man proportions belief to the evidence." David Hume The "evidence" of the nature of a HYIP forum is glaring when you look at the criteria for "forum standard" - they promote and inform about (positively as a rule) illegal and IMHO immoral HYIPs.

[wserra]

Funny thing that, I was just thinking what an excellent metaphor a "train running on time" was for "everything running smoothly. Either way, it's a pretty amoral way to look at the ethical import of moderating a HYIP forum, which was the original question for this thread.

Another metaphor, courtesy of "Professor Tom" Lehrer:

"Vunce rockets are up,
Who cares vhere zey come down?
Zat's not my department."
Says Wernher von Braun.

[Finix]

illegal and IMHO immoral HYIPs.
If I'm a mod on a HYIP forum, what's that to me? I'm not police, I'm not morality police either. What business is it of mine what people want to do in their spare time with their own money?

[Finix]

OK, I'll bite. What are they?
In rare situations, when you see some wide eyed dreamer wonder into a HYIP forum for no apparent reason, you might want to help them find the exit. Other than that, HYIP forum members know which way is up better than the mods, they don't need any instructions on thrill seeking activities from others.

[Lil Ol' Radical Me]

If I'm a mod on a HYIP forum, what's that to me? I'm not police, I'm not morality police either. What business is it of mine what people want to do in their spare time with their own money?

Perhaps you should ask that question of some poor idiot who has stumbled on one of these smooth running forums, followed the advice on them and invested and lost their retirement or medication funds in a HYIP. And before you say that it is not likely, it does happen. . Your answer demonstrates IMHO a total lack of ethics.

Equally a moderator who knowingly permits illegal activity or activity that they should know is illegal may, in the future, find out that it is not such an innocent pastime. Law enforcement is wising up to the activities on HYIP forums. They have already made it clear, in the last speight of indictments for financial fraud that they are becoming very much aware of the role of the forums in their promotion.

I suppose there are all sorts of metaphors one could use, but I wont bother as they are giving people the excuse to take this thread off topic! lol

[Finix]

Perhaps you should ask that question of some poor idiot who has stumbled on one of these smooth running forums
I thought my post above addressed this rare situation. That would be one of the things one could do as a mod on a HYIP forum, but it's not a part of the job description per ce. Ethics in general means doing the right thing yourself (in this case, not scamming), not instructing others on what is right and what is wrong.